Letting Go of the Need for Approval from Others

Letting Go of the Need for Approval from Others – In Session with Marc David

Marc David
Welcome everybody. I’m Marc David, founder of the Institute for the Psychology of Eating. We are in the Psychology of Eating Podcast, and I’m with Maggie today. Welcome Maggie!

Maggie
Thank you. Thanks for having me!

Marc David
I’m glad you’re here. So, for those of you might be new to the podcast, Maggie and I are meeting for the first time, we’re going to do a client session and see if we can do some good things together. So Maggie, if you could wave your magic wand and have whatever you wanted with food and body, what would that be for you?

Maggie
Well, as far as food is concerned, I’d like to not be so obsessed with everything that I eat. The calorie count. If it’s good, if it’s bad. It seems like that’s a 24 hour a day obsession for me! I always check labels. I’m always asking should I eat this or should I eat that? I’d just like to be more comfortable with my eating, and I would also like to lose 20 pounds. That’s where I feel most comfortable.

Marc David
So, how long have you been sort of tracking your food and concerned about calories and dieting and such?

Maggie
Well, since I’m about 13 and I am now 68 so a very long time.

Marc David
Okay, so you want to lose 20 pounds, yes. And what weight would that put you at?

Maggie
It would put me at about 130 pounds.

Marc David
And when was the last time you were at roughly 130 pounds?

Maggie
About three years ago. But about six years ago, I had bariatric surgery, and I lost about 54 pounds, and I did real well with it, until about a year or so ago, when I started putting the weight back on. And I’m just worried I’m going to just keep going and get back to my original heaviest and I don’t want to do that.

Marc David
Got it! So why do you think after the bariatric surgery, at some point, the weight came back on? What would you attribute that to?

Maggie
I really have no idea. Well, I was really restricting after the bariatric surgery. Now I realize how restrictive I was, and then I just got to the point where I decided that I didn’t want to be restrictive all the time, and I just started eating things that I wasn’t eating, and the weight just came on.

Marc David
Before the bariatric surgery, had you ever in all those years of dieting, had you ever gotten to your target weight?

Maggie
Yes, I would lose weight and then I’d gain weight and I’d lose it, I mean, the whole yo-yo dieting thing.

Marc David
Did you ever have a point where you felt okay, I feel good about myself, I feel good about my body, when you did lose the weight? How did you feel?

Maggie
I felt wonderful. It’s a good thing.

Marc David
What was wonderful about it?

Maggie
I just felt more confident. I felt that people took me more seriously. I just was happier in general. I could wear the kind of clothes that I like, that type of thing.

Marc David
So you could wear the kind of clothes you like, you felt more confident. You felt people took you more seriously. And yeah, you just felt better about yourself.

Maggie
Definitely!

Marc David
Okay. Remind me again, you said you were how old?

Maggie
68

Marc David
Do you ever think to yourself, how long you want to live for? Like, do you have a number in your mind?

Maggie
Uh, yeah, I think so. I’d like to be in my late 80s when I go.

Marc David
The late 80s. So we’re talking another 20 years on planet earth.

Maggie
Yeah!

Marc David
Are you married?

Maggie
I am!

Marc David
How long?

Maggie
It’ll be 35 years next week.

Marc David
Wow, congratulations!

Maggie
Thank you!

Marc David
How does your partner feel about your body?

Maggie
He loves me unconditionally. He’s like the best guy ever.

Marc David
And when he sees you go through all your dieting, What advice does he give you?

Maggie
He really doesn’t give me any advice. He supports me whether I’m dieting, whether I’m eating too much, whether I’m gaining weight, he really doesn’t pass any judgment or give me advice.

Marc David
Do you have kids?

Maggie
I do. I have three adult children, and I have eight grandchildren.

Marc David
Congratulations!

Maggie
Thank you. I know, they’re wonderful.

Marc David
Do they live near you?

Maggie
Yep! I’m very fortunate, they do.

Marc David
Oh, that’s so great. So 68 years old, you want to live into at least your late 80s. So that’s another 20 years. What do you imagine those 20 years are going to be for? Like, what do you want to do with those 20 years?

Maggie
I worked in healthcare for 42 years. I was a CAT scan technologist, and I retired in 2019 and then I went to culinary school because I had always wanted to do that, that was on my bucket list. I absolutely loved every minute of it. And I have a little home business where I teach cookie decorating, and that’s really fulfilling for me. I love it. Absolutely love it! So I can see myself continuing to do that, have the classes and just enjoy my family. That’s my main goal for the next 20 years. Enjoy watching them grow, and you know being with them.

Marc David
So you want to be there with your family and enjoy them. Enjoy your love of the culinary universe. I love it! Here you are, and you’ve been dieting since age 13. You’re 68 so that’s 55 years. Do you ever think to yourself that you’re tired of dieting?

Maggie
I am so tired of dieting! I remember when I was younger, telling myself that when I was 60 I was never going to diet again, but that didn’t happen.

Marc David
Here’s what’s interesting to me, 55 years is a long amount of time to be in the universe of worry about food, body and weight.

Maggie
Absolutely!Absolutely!

Marc David
And I gotta understand, you want to weigh what you want to weigh, but as you get older, as you know, life gets more precious. Time gets more precious and how you spend it gets more precious. That’s why I was interested to hear what you want to do with your precious time. And to me, the worry about food and weight and calories and what you’re eating, there’s a certain place where that’s become a habit for you.

Maggie
Yeah…

Marc David
It’s become very familiar. It’s like a second marriage.

Maggie
Mm, yes, very comfortable.

Marc David
And it’s familiar and you know it. You know what you’re going to think. You know how you’re going to feel you know if you gain weight you’re going to feel bad, if you lose some weight, you’re going to feel good. You weigh yourself, the number looks right. Everything’s great. And in a strange way, focusing on the food on our plate and the amount of food and the calories and the fat grams and all that sort of thing, it’s like its own religion.

Maggie
Absolutely, yeah!

Marc David
And it’s a way to structure our world. So the good news is, you have a choice in what your religion is, because you’re the one who’s doing the worshiping. You’re the one doing the praying. You’re the one who’s putting energy and attention onto certain rituals. And I just want to offer straight up that, why don’t you go on a dieting vacation? But even more than a dieting vacation, go on a vacation from having to change your body so you can feel better about yourself. When you say, well, when I lost the weight and I got down to 130 people take you more seriously. Who? Don’t even answer that question. The people that love you, your husband doesn’t care. I guarantee you your children don’t care.

Maggie
Yeah, I know they don’t.

Marc David
I promise you your grandchildren don’t care. If somebody truly wasn’t taking you seriously because of your weight, they shouldn’t be in your world. I mean, think of how silly that is. You wouldn’t say to your grandchild, you know, I’m not going to respect you and I’m not going to take you seriously until all your baby fat is gone, or until you lose weight. You wouldn’t say that your grandchildren you wouldn’t say that to your kids. But in a way, I could be wrong, but I think the people who don’t take you seriously when you’re supposedly not at your target weight, those people live in your head.

Maggie
I see that absolutely, yeah, I’m my own worst enemy. I really am.

Marc David
So you can change that. I know you know that, but I think, personally, that this is the time in your life to take that knowing and actually put it into action. So to take that knowing, I know I’m my own worst enemy. I know that the things I say to my own self about my body or my weight, I would never say to my kids or my grandkids. So why would you say them to you?

Maggie
I find I go on a downward spiral, like I’ll go past a mirror and I won’t like how I look. So I just get all these bad thoughts, and then, oh, I have to not eat, you know, tomorrow I’ll have to stop doing what I’m doing, and I just go on this downward spiral.

Marc David
You know, I believe, I’ve been doing this work for 40 years now. And what I’ve come to the conclusion, one of the things that I’ve come to the conclusion is that often times our relationship with food and our relationship with our body and its weight can get kind of stuck at a certain age. So if somebody starts dieting when they’re 13, then, in a strange way, it’s the 13 year old me that’s always dieting, even when I’m 30 or 40 or 50 or 60. It’s that little kid who somehow got the message, you’re no good, you’re not lovable, you’re not okay, and unless I change my body, nobody’s going to take me seriously. Nobody’s going to love me. Somehow you got that message, and trust me, you’re not the only person, you’re not the only woman who got that message, welcome to the club. People get the message that your body is not good enough. You have to change it. It has to be taller, shorter, thinner, more muscular, whatever it is, it’s got to change it’s shape. And we get these notions in our head that come from the world. They come from the world, but they land in us, and it’s our job to decommission them. So all I’m trying to say is I’m asking you to consider that when you’re looking in the mirror and you’re not liking yourself, that’s not 68 year old Maggie – mother and grandmother and elder citizen and wise woman. That’s not who’s talking. Who’s talking in that moment is the little girl who wants to lose weight so people will love her and take her seriously.

Maggie
Yeah.

Marc David
The good news is, you’re not that little girl anymore!

Maggie
By far!

Marc David
But that little girl still tends to sit at the head of the table when you eat. When you eat, when you think about food, it’s that little girl worrying.

Maggie
Yeah, that’s true.

Marc David
Have you ever heard me talk about the archetypes of the Queen and the Princess?

Maggie
Yes.

Marc David
So quick refresher, archetypes, think of all the fairy tales that we’ve heard about, about the Princess and the Queen and the Princess stage. And Princess, we often use that term pejoratively, but I’m not looking at it in a negative sense. Princess is the younger phase of a woman’s life. There’s a very early Princess, there’s a middle Princess, there’s a late Princess. But in the Princess stage, when a woman is young, when a female is young, she still doesn’t know herself because she’s young. And in the Princess stage, we want approval from the outside. Tell me I’m okay. Tell me I’m beautiful. Tell me you love me. Look at me. Aren’t I wonderful? We need approval from the outside, because it helps build us up when the big people around us tell us, you’re wonderful, you’re beautiful, we love you just as you are.

Maggie
Yeah, in my family, I was the pretty one. My sister was the smart one, so I was always valued for the way that I looked, and that became my persona.

Marc David
Yes, interesting. So you brought that persona into your later years and what’s happening is the Princess is still sitting at the head of the table. And who should be sitting at the head of the table when you’re 68 is the Queen? The Queen is exactly as it sounds. A good Queen knows who she is. She believes in herself. She’s confident in herself. She understands that her value is in who she is and what she has to give to the world. Her value is not in how much body fat she has. Her value is not in not having any wrinkles and being perfect and having the perfect body. That stage is over with, it’s gone. But if you’re a woman of Queen’s age and you’re letting the Princess run the show, you will be miserable.

Maggie
And I have been!

Marc David
The good news is you could self initiate into Queen at any time you want. It is a literal self initiation. It’s a literal decision where you have to – to me, it’s like a spiritual reckoning. It’s a spiritual act where you look in the mirror and you be with yourself, and you say to yourself, I’m done. I am done judging myself around how I should look and what I should weigh, because every moment you spend in worry is a moment where you’re not fully available for the world and for the people that you love.

Maggie
That’s also true!

Marc David
And it’s a moment where you’re not able to be in your glory and your Queenhood and your grandmotherhood and your wise womanhood, but instead, in your mind, you’re trying to be the 16 year old Princess. So I’m just raising my hand and saying this because, you know, once you hit your 60s, you know, we’re on the other side of…

Maggie
Yes, definitely and I do want to be happy for the time that I have left. You know, I want to not be miserable all the time because of the way that I look. It just doesn’t make any sense to me.

Marc David
No, it doesn’t make sense. And it is an old habit, and it is the kind of sort of viral belief that lives in the world. So it’s not yours personally, you didn’t invent it. But the good news is you can claim at any time, you can claim your dignity, and you can say, I will no longer tie my self worth to how much I weigh. So if it was me, I would love to see you get rid of your scale and never weigh yourself again.

Maggie
Really? Okay.

Marc David
Yeah! Never weigh yourself ever again.

Maggie
It’s not important.

Marc David
It’s not important. So you’re going to let a scale tell you how you feel. You know, this little machine that has no intelligence whatsoever. You’re going to let that machine report to you how you should feel that day, and you’re going to let a number 130 determine your value as a person. Yeah, you wouldn’t wish that on your grandchildren.

Maggie
Absolutely not.

Marc David
So why wish it on yourself? It’s like undoing a curse.

Maggie
And that’s exactly what it is! A curse. Absolutely.

Marc David
It’s undoing that curse. And the good news is, you got a nice king, prince charming, who loves you.

Maggie
I do!

Marc David
And nobody is looking for you to lose weight, and nobody that you know in your world, is making your weight conditional upon them loving you except for you. So what I would say is, get rid of the scale and start to live life as if this body right now, this is your body. This is your body, like this body you have right now. And I would pretend, for at least three or four months, pretend that this is the body I’m going to have for the rest of my life. How would I conduct myself? Who would I be? How would I show up? If you knew for a certain that this is the body I’m going to have for the rest of my life, you’d be lucky to have this body for the rest of your life. Right now, you’re as young and healthy as you’ll ever be.

Maggie
That’s very true.

Marc David
So really, now’s the time to live your life and let go of the tyranny. Yeah, a number that you’ve invented. So you’ve decided well, I feel better at this number. Look around you. There’s people of all kinds of shapes, weights, sizes and heights, feeling good about themselves. We invent a number and say that’s the number that’s going to make me feel good and then we chase after it, and then we get it and we lose it, and then when we have it, we think we feel good, but it’s a temporary high.

Maggie
Definitely!

Marc David
If getting to that number was truly the Promised Land, then every time you got there, you would have stayed there. So it’s surrendering, it’s giving it up. It’s literally like, I surrender, I won’t do this anymore and begin to occupy the body that you have right now and appreciate the body you have right now. Because you’ve been trying to change your body since you were 13, you have no idea what it’s like to just go, this is me! I’m not going to try to change it. And that’s going to mean starting to trust yourself more and trust your life. Just trust that you know something, you’ll take care of yourself. You’re not going to eat yourself into oblivion and if you overeat or you emotionally eat, you stand by yourself, you forgive yourself, you don’t torture yourself. It’s the self torture when we eat something that we think we shouldn’t eat, that’s actually the problem.

Maggie
I agree! I think that sometimes I restrict myself so much that and then I just say I can’t do it anymore, and then I just go crazy on all the stuff that I think I can’t have.

Marc David
Exactly. So there’s no time like the present to just literally draw a line in the sand. I mean, really, it’s just like that. And the thing is, there’s nothing wrong with you. You’re not doing anything wrong. The challenge is, you’re not allowing yourself to live in this body that you have and occupy it and love it and experience it and experience life without trying to change yourself. I mean, imagine if you woke up every day and the person you’re sleeping with every day wakes up with you and says, Honey, you need to change. You need to change your body. And if you don’t change your body, I’m not going to love you. And keeps reminding you every day and every time you’re hungry and every time you eat, honey, you better not eat that, or you better watch what you eat, because if you don’t, then I’m not going to love you. That’s torture.

Maggie
That would be absolute torture! And I would not stay with anyone like that.

Marc David
No, so that’s why we want to kick that voice out of your head. And that takes practice. It’s literally an ongoing practice, because the old voice is still going to be there, but you’re slowly letting it go, and you’re inviting a newer voice to the head of the table, and that newer voice is Queen Grandma Maggie. She is the Queen who has authority over herself, who loves herself, who sits on her throne and is not saying, Am I okay? Does this dress look good enough? Do you love me, even though I think I have 10 pounds to lose. No, a good Queen doesn’t say that. A good Queen sets an example. I’m sitting in my power, and I love me for who I am. I love you – the people I love, for who you are! So it’s setting an example for your grandkids.

Maggie
Yeah, I would love to be that type of example for them! Absolutely.

Marc David
You have the power to do that, you really do. And it’s literally choosing a new path, choosing to let go of dieting. And it’s kind of like jumping off the ledge.

Maggie
Yeah, it feels like it! It makes me feel anxious thinking about it.

Marc David
Yeah, it’s jumping off a ledge, but if not now, then when, because you will literally go to the grave with this.

Maggie
Absolutely.

Marc David
And I’ve met people who do, and it’s sad to me. It’s sad sad because they were the only person torturing themselves. They were the only person who cared. Nobody else cared about them losing a single pound and it’s not fair to the rest of the world for you to diminish yourself and make the best version of you less available to everybody. So, yeah, you’re no longer doing it just for you. You’re doing it for the people who you love and that you want to be an example for.

Maggie
And that’s very important to me!

Marc David
So when you’re looking to make these changes, you think to yourself, I’m doing it for my grandkids. I want to set a great example as a mature woman who loves herself for who she is. Which means letting go of the Princess dream. I’m going to have this body and I’m going to feel so good because I fit into the clothes that I want to fit into. Throw out those clothes, you know, let’s throw them all out. Fit into the clothes that you fit into right now, and let those be your clothes. And stop setting yourself up for disappointment.

Maggie
I do because I look at the clothes and I don’t fit into them anymore, and I say, oh, man, I would love to be that weight again. I need to stop eating. And, yeah, I’m going to get rid of them.

Marc David
Get rid of them, and begin your journey of making friends with food. Because guess what? The way God invented us, all creatures eat. We’re eaters. If you don’t eat, you die. So God didn’t invent food to torture us. Didn’t invent food to put body fat on us. Food is what sustains us. Food is the manna from heaven. Food is wonderful and you’ve been conditioned to believe that food is your enemy and that you have to fight it.

Maggie
I teach cookie decorating classes. I make really pretty cookies, and everybody loves it, and my classes are always full, and I had never tasted one of my cookies that I made because I always felt like I couldn’t eat it because it was a sweet and it would make me fat and I’d be out of control. And so I never tasted one of my cookies before. It’s very sad now that I think about it, very sad.

Marc David
Well, you can change that. That’s the good news. And you know, sitting in your Queenhood means you’re trusting yourself. Because when you say well, if I eat the cookie I’m just never going to stop. That’s the biggest fear. I’m never going to stop, and I’m just going to balloon and I’m going to weigh hundreds and hundreds of pounds. So, have you ever done that?

Maggie
No, I haven’t. I mean, I’ve gained weight, but not like that.

Marc David
So you gain weight, and then you found yourself again and all I’m saying is your worst nightmare has never come true. And your strategy, the strategy you’ve been doing for 55 years, just hasn’t worked. It hasn’t gotten you to any Promised Land. If something doesn’t work after 55 years, we change it and we try something else. So the something else here is to begin to make friends with food. Make friends with cookies and eat the cookie. Enjoy it. Savor it. Celebrate it! Because that’s what you want to do anyway. You eat the cookie. You love them. You’re making them. They make other people happy. They make them happy to make them. They’re going to make you happy to eat it! And give yourself that pleasure. Because here’s the thing, when we give ourselves a pleasure and we fully embrace that pleasure, and we experience that pleasure, we become satisfied.

Maggie
Yeah. I think if I were more comfortable eating a cookie. I wouldn’t eat as much! I wouldn’t eat all of the cookies if I just enjoyed it and was comfortable.

Marc David
Exactly, because if we keep making it bad, you shouldn’t do this it’s bad, it’s bad. Eventually you’re gonna eat it, and you’re gonna be out of control because you’re being limited and you almost have to grasp it. But that grasping and that desperation comes from the fact that we’re limiting ourselves in the first place, and we’re holding ourselves back, and we’re saying, no, no, no, you can’t experience pleasure. Well, we’re built for pleasure. The reason why food tastes good on your tongue is we’re designed that way. Food is designed to be pleasurable. So many aspects of life are designed right into our physiology to be pleasurable. So it’s about you having a new relationship, and learning at this ripe young age of 68 learning that you can trust your relationship with pleasure, explore it. Sure, you might eat the cookies and you might overeat them, but you know what happens? You forgive yourself. You go, oh, you know next time, I want to take a deep breath. I want to slow down, I want to notice myself more, and give yourself the opportunity to be in relationship with food, as opposed to be fighting it, trying to resist it. How’s all this landing for you, Maggie?

Maggie
It’s incredible. It sounds great. I’m going to go throw out my scale as soon as we’re done here. And I think if I keep on remembering that I’m setting an example for my children, and that I need to be confident to do that. I think that would be extremely helpful, and I know that sometimes, yeah, I will probably revert back to the old way. But if I stay present and I remember then, it won’t be as bad, and I’ll get to enjoy what’s left of my life.

Marc David
Exactly! Donate the clothes that don’t fit. And if you happen to lose weight, then you buy new clothes. But own this body that you have and just begin to enjoy it and say, You know something, all things considered, this is not so bad. And you can learn to love your body at this weight. You can learn to love your body no matter how old it is, because it’s the same way you love the people you love. You’re just loving them unconditionally and you’re not placing demands on how somebody’s body should look or weigh in order for you to love them. So just do the same for yourself. Give that to yourself.

Maggie
Yeah. It’s going to be difficult, because for so long, it’s a habit.You know, even the bad thoughts are a habit. I just revert right back to the bad thoughts.

Marc David
So it’s literally learning at this ripe young age, because we’re always learning, how to begin to harness your mind and your thoughts. So as soon as those thoughts start to come in, as soon as those negative thoughts start to come in, I’m going to suggest you witness yourself like, Oh, Maggie, there you are, speaking unkind to yourself. The first question you could ask yourself is, would I speak that way to my grandchild? The answer is no, therefore I ought not speak that way to anybody, including myself. So it’s learning to catch yourself, because like you say it’s habit, and habits, especially the unwanted habits, they’re automatic, they’re repetitive, and they’re unconscious. So you don’t have to wake up in the morning and think, I need to torture myself today about my body, it happens naturally.

Maggie
Absolutely, I just defer to that.

Marc David
Yes, so the habit is going to do itself. So because it’s automatic and it’s unconscious, the way to transform that habit is to introduce consciousness, introduce awareness. Just introduce the light, and shine light on that habit when it starts to do itself, and the witness part of you who’s noticing your life says, whoa, wait a second. That’s not good for me. Time out. I’m going to cut this conversation in my head right here and see if you can even replace the thought with a better thought in the moment. I’m learning to love this body. I’m learning to accept my body. I’m learning to celebrate my body, because all things considered, here you are. You’re relatively healthy, and you look great.

Maggie
Thank you.

Marc David
So let’s start to give your body some love and some thanks and gratitude and look at all the good things that it does give you.

Maggie
Yes, I am grateful that I am healthy and that I can move freely I don’t have any problems with mobility, or, that I can keep learning and that I can keep doing. I’m very grateful because some people at my age don’t have that.

Marc David
Well, Maggie, I have all the confidence in the world that you can do this. Get rid of the scale, donate the clothes and choose to be the Queen and say goodbye to the Princess part of you that needs to have the ideal body, because that’s not your life stage anymore. And just embrace this new life stage. This is my body.

Maggie
Yes. Thank you so much! It’s so helpful to keep reminding myself that, and it’s been a pleasure talking to you about it. It really has been. I appreciate you!

Marc David
Maggie, I appreciate you too. What a great conversation, and what a great example you’re going to be for your grandkids, and I know that you already are. Thank you so much, and thanks everybody for tuning in!