Understanding “All or Nothing” Behavior with Food & Diet

Marc David

Welcome. I’m Marc David, founder of the Institute for the Psychology of Eating, we are in the Psychology of Eating Podcast. I’m with Lee today. Welcome, Lee.

Lee

Hi, thank you.

Marc David

Here’s how it works. We haven’t had the opportunity to interact until now, and we get to have a session together. The idea is to help you move forward in the brief amount of time that we have. If you could wave your magic wand and have whatever you want with food and body, what would that be for you?

Lee

I’ve been looking forward to this question. I think the thing for me would be to not have it take up so much of my bandwidth. To not be thinking about it so much. I love what I’ve heard you say before about how much of our energy and potential is taken up with that stuff, and I feel like it’s been happening my whole life. I’d really love to be way more free of that. I’d like to be lighter. I’m not hugely focused on weight and numbers, but I’m near my heaviest I’ve ever been, and I’d like to be quite a bit lighter in weight. I’d like to feel more accepting of my body as she is in the moment. I feel like I’ve made some real gains in that, but I’d like to be even more so, I think. Just to be happy with what I eat and how I eat.

Marc David

Let me see if I can reflect what you just said. If you could wave your magic wand, and have whatever you wanted, you wouldn’t be thinking about food and body so much. You would be lighter because you’ve been at your heaviest for a while. At the same time, it also sounds like you want to accept your body as it is. Let’s just take notice that those are two desires that seem to be in the opposite direction.

Lee

Yes.

Marc David

I want to be lighter, and I also want to accept my body as it is. I understand, and that’s completely reasonable. Where are you based?

Lee

I’m in New Zealand.

Marc David

Okay, and in an ideal universe, how much weight would you lose?

Lee

Quite a lot. We do kilos here, so about 20 kilos.

Marc David

When was the last time you were 20 kilos less?

Lee

About nine years ago.

Marc David

How did you get to that weight? Was it just dieting and exercise?

Lee

It was a combination of things. It was a health scare, and a really strong desire to do it. I’ve never been a dieter as such. I’ve never believed it was a good idea, but I have done some weird sort of deprivation stuff at the same time. Have you heard of Dr. Libby Weaver? She’s written some books.

Her book talks about all the different aspects of weight, and the IPE coaching was a big help, too. I really just focused on eating less and having a better eating rhythm during the day. I’ve kind of discovered over the years that my body likes fewer carbs. I’ve got myself completely off sugar, and it seemed to make a big difference. I was very focused on it for a while, and I’ve always been more focused on health than weight. I was really focused on health and managed to succeed in a way that I hadn’t before. I actually lost 36 kilos.

Marc David

Yes.

So why do you think the weight came back on?

Lee

A few things. My mother died, and she had a pretty drawn out kind of dying. It wasn’t very nice. It was unusual and not a very nice process for her and for the rest of us. We didn’t know if she’d make it or not for the most part of about three months. She was in ICU, and that was really stressful. So, I kind of lost that inner strength. I’ve never felt so much in the streets as I did during that time that I succeeded at losing weight. So, that was one thing. That was a big thing, I think. We went on an overseas holiday to Pacific Island, and it was really hard to eat the way that I had been eating. Once I got back on the bread, and back on the sugar, I just couldn’t seem to get myself back off it again.

Marc David

How old are you now?

Lee

60 last week.

Marc David

Oh, congratulations!

Lee

Yeah, it feels good.

Marc David

You’ve been alive six decades now…what a good thing! That’s a nice landmark. Are you in a relationship? Married? Kids?

Lee

Yes, I’m married to Nigel. Lovely husband. Lovely marriage.

Marc David

How does he feel about your weight?

Lee

He loves me whatever weight I am. He has been a big part of me feeling more accepting. He loves my curves, and he likes me being a bit on the larger side. He is happy with whatever weight I am, and he wants me to be healthy and well. So, he’s very supportive.

Marc David

That must feel good!

Lee

Yeah, it does!

Marc David

When you had lost the 36 kilos, and it eventually came back on with your mom’s dying process and then traveling, how long did you stay at that weight loss that you had?

Lee

I was maintaining it for about two or three years. I think I went a little bit the other way, though. I came across the word “orthorexia” about the time I studied with IPE, and I went: “oh, my goodness, that’s me!”. I was asking if there’s any sugar in the dressing in the restaurant and being really, really particular about everything. So, I think that might have been part of the issue as well. When I couldn’t maintain it, it just all went out the window. But I was maintaining it and feeling really good.

Marc David

How’s your health these days?

Lee

Pretty good, I think, for 60. I don’t take any medication. I take a little melatonin and occasional sleeping pills for sleeping. I have an underactive thyroid, but it’s not been medicated. I have an issue with low iron that’s a family thing and sort of a mystery that they’ve never been able to figure out. I have lipedema, and that’s been getting a bit worse lately. Usually, that’s been fairly well-managed, but I’ve noticed it’s got worse as I’ve got a bit heavier over this past winter. I tend to put on weight in the winter as I experience a bit of seasonal affective disorder where I get low energy, and it’s hard to stay off foods that don’t help.

Marc David

How long do you think you want to live?

Lee

Oh, I don’t know…another 20-30 years, maybe? So long as I’m healthy and well.

Marc David

Let’s say you get to live another 30 healthy years. I like that goal. What do you think you’re gonna do in those 30 years that’s going to make those 30 years worth it?

Lee

What I’m gonna do…just in general?

Marc David

Yeah, what are you gonna do with your life? Who do you want to be when you’re in your 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s?

Lee

Yeah, a wise woman. I really have had a bit of a feeling of being a frustrated healer all my life. It feels like I’m only now coming into that phase of my life where I feel like I’m ready to offer those healing gifts to the world. So, I see myself doing that. I’m a Chi Gong teacher, and I see myself still doing Chi Gong and teaching Chi Gong. Of course, it’s really good for my own health and wellness. I see myself enjoying my family. We’ve just had our first grandchild, and we’ve got five children in our blended family, so I’m looking forward to being grandma for our immediate family and even for other people’s families.

Marc David

What does a wise-woman mean to you? That’s the first thing you said when I asked you who you want to be in these next 30 years, and you said a wise woman. I think I know what you mean but what does that mean to you?

Lee

I think it means being there for other people in a calm, steady way. I just made a friend recently who’s got a little baby, and she’s from Vietnam so she doesn’t have any family around. I’m really enjoying supporting her. It’s about giving back to the community and sharing what I’ve learned all these many decades, and ups and downs.

Marc David

Good for you. On a day to day basis, when it comes to you and food, how would you describe your relationship with food?

Lee

My whole life I’ve had phases. I have a “healthy” phase, and then I have kind of “fallen off the wagon” phase. I know the things that have worked for me now, and I’ve known them for quite a long time. When I look back, I remember knowing as a teenager that bread and cheese wasn’t doing me any good. We were often a bit short of food in our house, so we were often just eating that. So, I have phases where it feels good, and it’s easy. I’ve been in one of those at the moment for about a month after I heard some really good speakers online that inspired me. Or, perhaps the time was just right because I wasn’t feeling good coming into Spring. So yeah, I tend to have these phases. That’s the bit that I’m really interested in figuring out because when I’m in a “good” phase or “healthy” phase, I feel like it’s gonna last forever and when I’m in an “unhealthy” phase, I feel like that’s gonna last forever too. I start to feel like I’ve got to get back to the “healthy” phase, but it just feels too hard.

Marc David

What does a “healthy” phase look like for you?

Lee

At the moment, I mostly eat two meals a day. I’ve never been a big breakfast person though I’ve tried at different times in my life. Having said that, when I kept the weight off I was having smoothies in the morning, though I tend to only have them in the summer. So, mostly just protein and vegetables, to be honest, and good fats. I’m a bit of a nutrition nerd, and I really like to say I’ve discovered what I think works for me. I discovered I need to have protein at every meal, and I eat meat even though I really enjoy vegetarian food. I don’t eat dairy, or gluten, or sugar, or alcohol, or caffeine.

Marc David

Okay, that’s a “healthy” phase. What’s the “unhealthy” phase look like?

Lee

A lot more bread and sugar. A bit more chaotic eating. One of the things that I did for many years was not eating enough during the day until I’d find myself needing to eat all the food. What’s that thing you say where you’re eating all the food in the evening? I just couldn’t get enough food in the evening to satiate me.

Marc David

Would you consider yourself an all-or-nothing kind of person?

Lee

Yeah, I am when it comes to food and when it comes to sugar. I’m a Libra, and I can be a perfectionist as well. I’m trying to give it up.

Marc David

That’s what catches my attention. This all-or-nothing, healthy or unhealthy mindset where we go from one extreme to the other. Libra is the sign of the scale. Libra likes balance. Balance doesn’t mean one end of the scale where you’re eating no sugar, or you’re eating “healthy”, or you’re eating sugar, therefore, you should eat a lot of sugar and not take care of yourself. That’s going to the extremes. Have you ever experimented with: what if I had some sugar?

Lee

Yeah, I have. It’s only been a month, and I feel a bit different.  I’ve been learning about nervous system regulation and  I’m learning more and more all the time about why I do the stuff I do such as using food to relax me when I’m tired. So, this time, I am being more open and not being so fussy. For example, I was at a Scottish-themed party on Saturday night, and I had some cheese. I really enjoyed it, but then I had a stuffed up nose the next day. Then, I had a piece of shortbread, because everybody was having the shortbread, and that was all right. However, I noticed that I ate a bag of crisps the next day, and I had the feeling of wanting to binge. So, I didn’t eat much, but I ate something. I noticed that when you say “all-or-nothing”, I feel like I am about certain foods. If I start eating them, then the desire comes back. So, that’s why I’m a bit all-or-nothing with it.

Marc David

A few things occurred to me. When it comes to nutrition, you describe yourself as a “nutrition nerd”. I totally relate. I’m one as well. A lot of times when we are nutrition nerds, one of the traps we can fall into is wanting to get it right. We figure out okay, here’s what works for me, and I need to get it right. Even more, along the way, I might learn some new things, and I might be even “righter”! I think that’s what gets in your way.

Lee

Yeah.

Marc David

When I asked you at the beginning if you could wave your magic wand and get whatever you wanted with food and body, you mentioned that you don’t want to be thinking about these things so much. So, I think the part of you that wants to get it right is always on high-alert. You’re always on alert for: “Did I eat the right thing? Oh, I shouldn’t eat that.” You noticed that you had the shortbread, and then the next day, all of a sudden, you’re eating other things that you don’t normally wish to be eating. I personally love taking care of myself, so I completely understand the desire to eat healthy. I also completely understand that there’s going to be times when we dip our toes in some of the “forbidden foods”, and it’s easier to want more. If we’re defining our food choices in our mind as “right” or “wrong”, “good” or “bad”, there’s going to be a little bit of punishment when you get it wrong. There’s going to be a little bit of self-deprecation, and for you I think that’s more subtle. You want to get it right but instead of getting it right how about if you look at it like you’re on a lifelong journey with food and your body and it’s always teaching you? It’s not about getting it right so much as it’s about learning what your body is saying and doing your best to take care of yourself. It sounds like a value of yours is health. If my value is health, yeah, I’m going to measure against: “do I think this is healthy for me or not?” It becomes problematic when I determine that sugar is not healthy for me, and when I eat sugar, the part of me that thinks I got it “wrong” is the part of me that contributes to the part of me that then wants more.

Lee

Okay, that makes sense.

Marc David

It’s a little bit subtle. Instead of aspiring to get it “right” and aspiring to being in perfect harmony, how about you aspire to your values which are: “I want to eat the healthiest things I can, I want to feel good, and I want to feel lighter.” One of the ways to feel lighter other than to lose weight is to just be lighter within yourself and not let the thoughts weigh you down, so to speak. Oftentimes, the thought-process can be heavy. I’m wondering: what would the wise-woman in you say to you? How would the wise-woman in you counsel you about your relationship with food?

Lee

That I’m doing okay, and not to worry about it.

Marc David

Yes! There you go. Don’t worry about it. What’s interesting to me is that you’re in a long-term loving relationship, where you have a partner, a husband, and a man who loves you as you are. What a beautiful thing. That’s just something to be so grateful for.

Lee

It’s been so healing for me. It’s been about 17 years now, so I’m thankful that’s been so healing for my relationship with my body.

Marc David

That’s amazing. That’s something to get nourishment from. That’s something to get energy from. That’s something to feel lighter about. Yes, you still have your values around being healthy and there’s also a place where you don’t worry about it and you do the best you can. Really, you’re doing the best you can. When I asked you to describe how your health is these days I noticed that, for someone in her 60’s, it’s not so bad. So, you’re doing something right. Part of our challenge when it comes to weight is that we’ve been very conditioned to automatically associate the thought: “I’m overweight” with the thought: “therefore, I’m not healthy.” The reality is, this is not a good connection. You can be a “perfect” weight, and also be unhealthy. I know plenty of people who have the “ideal” body, the “ideal” shape, and they’re fit, yet they have a disease, or they get cancer, or they get heart disease, or whatever it is. So, weight doesn’t guarantee you anything in terms of health except when you’re extremely thin or extremely overweight. You put yourself at risk for health issues, for sure, when you get into the extremes.

There was something that scientists were calling “The Obesity Paradox” for a number of years. Everybody kept saying that if you’re overweight, you’re gonna die sooner. It turns out, people who were considered overweight lived a little bit longer. There’s a wonderful book called Health at Every Size that breaks through the illusion that when you’re overweight, and by what standard we measure overweight is not even known, then you are automatically at greater risk for health issues, and you are also unhealthy. It’s a slippery slope. The proof is in how you are doing and how you are feeling in your body. We can always do healthy things for ourselves, and I don’t want you to get trapped in the belief that unless you lose 20 or 30 kilos you cannot be healthy. We don’t know that that is true. We really don’t.

Lee

I’ve just noticed some anxiety coming in about my lipedema. I have been having more pain in one leg keeping me awake at night, and I think it’s because I’ve put on some weight over the winter. So, I’ve just noticed anxiety about that this summer, and I worry that if I put on more weight, or I don’t lose weight, then I’m going to have more problems with my legs and have problems with mobility because it’s progressive.

Marc David

So, then it becomes a dialogue with yourself of: “okay, I have this medical concern. I have lipedema. It’s affecting my legs. It’s affecting pain levels. Can weight loss help with that? Potentially, yes.” So, how important is that for you?

Lee

When you say that, I think it’s actually more about not gaining weight. That is probably what is most important. Some weight loss may help, but it’s actually more about not gaining weight and continuing good self-care for the things that help my lymphatic system function better in my legs.

Marc David

Yes, I like the idea of self-care for you as opposed to weight loss.

Lee

Yeah, I feel like it’s taken me maybe 50 years to learn how to take good care of myself. I’ve spent many, many decades not taking care of myself. My father died when I was young, and my mother was kind of absent because she was trying to deal with that while working and everything else. So, I looked after myself as well as my younger brother and sister at a really young age of about 10 years old. I took care of cooking meals, and taking care of the family, and doing my own washing. So, it took me many decades to learn how to just take care of myself for even something as simple as wearing enough warm clothing. Now, I’ve gotten completely the other way. I do everything!

Marc David

That’s a beautiful thing. Self-care is a beautiful thing. Self-care becomes uncaring when it becomes perfectionism. It becomes uncaring when you’re holding a stick over your head and thinking that if you don’t do this, you’re bad, and if you do do this, you’re good. It defeats the purpose of self-care because you also want to care for yourself, for your heart, and for your imperfections. It’s harder to do self-care when you are standing like a guardian at your own gate ready to punish yourself and say: “you’re a bad girl because you didn’t do self care. Or, you should be worried because you didn’t do self-care.”

Lee

Yeah, I love that. What you just said about self-care for imperfections hit home.

Marc David

Self-care should be something that you can, for the most part, relax into. There are certain things we have to do for self-care that take a little more effort, but there’s also a lot of things you can do for self-care that come a bit more naturally for you. When I asked you what the wise woman inside of you would say to you, you said: “don’t worry so much”. So, I think it’s the worry part of you that gets to you. The net result of any diet or of any nutritional system, ultimately, is death. No matter how perfectly you eat, no matter how little sugar you have, you will die. We will all die, no matter how organic the diet is; whether it’s vegan or paleo. I don’t care, we’re all gonna die. We really learn that between the time I’m born and the time I die, I’m an eater. I have a body, so what do I do about that? How do I care for it in a way that works for me so I can live my best life? Food is there to support you living your best life. It’s not here to be always on your mind. It’s not here to be something that you always have to think about and figure out because then you’re in worry.

Lee

I do enjoy food. We have a garden, and I love it.

Marc David

Yeah, so I think for you it’s about learning to relax more into self-care and relax more into not having to have it be all-or-nothing. Its about being compassionate with yourself when you notice that you strayed a little bit from what you think is good for you, and noticing that now you find yourself wanting to continue to go down that road. That’s a growing edge for you. “I have that tendency, so let me watch for that, and let me see if I can make an adjustment…okay, I had the shortbread tonight. Let me make sure tomorrow that I’m more aware of what I’m eating.” This is as opposed to: “oh my God! Now I’m going to eat more junk food the next day.” I’m wanting the wise-woman voice in you to help you in managing your relationship with food.

Lee

Yep, she’s up for that job!

Marc David

I like that. I like that for you. At the end of the day, like I said, we really don’t know what a perfectly healthy weight is for any human being. Therefore, I’m always judging my own health by asking: “how do I feel? Am I taking good care of myself? Am I listening to my body? Am I listening for feedback? Am I doing my best? Am I making sure that my mind is not contributing to ill health, through self-punishment, perfectionism, and self-attack?” That’s not going to work. Those factors can be worse than the worst foods.

Lee

Yeah, and I suppose then I have this “how” question though I think I may be making it a bit more complicated than it needs to be. I can hear the wise-woman saying: “it doesn’t have to be so complicated, just let it go.”

Marc David

Yes. That’s the voice to listen to, and you can always tune into her. If that’s the person you want to be for the next 30-40 years of your life, then a great way to start being that wise-woman is to be that wise-woman for you.

Lee

Yeah, that’s lovely. Thank you.

Marc David

Really give yourself your own good counsel because then you’re practicing what you’re preaching, and you’re doing what you know is true. You’re following your own guiding star. That means trusting. We’re not going to be perfectly healthy because there’s always gonna be the little things. We don’t know what life has in store for us, but you do your best and then, you don’t worry so much about it. You just do your best.

Lee

I can’t take away the worry of the last 60 years, but I can take away the worry of the next 30 years.

Marc David

Exactly. It’s never too late. You’ll be helping younger people be able to let go of some worry that could last them decades. So, I think you have all the tools that you need. They’re very much inside of you. I’m just excited for you that you are tapped into the wise-woman way, and the wise woman path and giving it to yourself.

Lee

Oh, that’s lovely. It’s really lovely. Thank you. One thing that’s coming up for me is about my teaching. Increasingly, I’m doing more of my Qigong teaching on Zoom. That’s pretty confronting for me because while I teach I have to stand up in front of a group and they’re watching my body as I’m showing them what to do. I didn’t even know I had lipedema until about four years ago, so I always  thought that I had these big, unattractive legs and now it’s starting to affect my arm. I’ve done lots of leading groups in my life, so I’m kind of used to this feeling that I’m gonna be judged…which I probably am, and that’s fine…but how do I get rid of that kind of anxiety in myself about what I’m presenting? It feels like I didn’t have a very good princess kind of time. I feel like I kind of missed out on that. So, I think there’s some vestiges of that, and perhaps it’s time to let that go.

Marc David

You know, the thing about Qigong is that you don’t have to have a particular body or body-type to do that form of energy-movement and exercise. In fact, it transcends every age group and every body type. There’s something very beautiful about that, and there’s something in that that you can really own. The wise-man in me wants to say to the wise-woman in you to own your body when you’re teaching. Own it like: “this is me doing this amazing form, and this amazing practice that keeps me connected, keeps me healthy, and keeps me tuned in.” Just own it because guess what? The most important people in your life love you. The most important people in your life are satisfied with your body. Nobody who cares about you is asking you to change your body.

Lee

No, that’s right. Nobody is.

Marc David

There’s a beautiful teaching that you can impart as you own this body that you have, especially given that you’re on video and moving your body. It’s a great opportunity, and it’s not always going to be easy. It might be uncomfortable, but that’s okay. You just move outside of your comfort, and you breathe through it. You transmute that energy until eventually, it’s just energy. That nervousness, that self-judgment, that fear is just the energy wanting to transmute itself into something useful.

Lee

Yeah, absolutely. I can see how that’s already happening. Thank you.

Marc David

That can be an inspiration to a lot of people because so many people are shy of movement because of their age, or because of how they look, or because of their mobility. Here you are doing a practice that welcomes everybody. You could be in a wheelchair, for goodness sakes.

Lee

Yeah! You can do it in your mind even. Yes, that’s so helpful. Ahhhh.

Marc David

Well, like I said, I think you have all the tools that you need, and the transition from age 50 to age 60 is a very powerful time where you really enter your wisdom phase.

Lee

Yeah, that really feels significant to me. I’m really enjoying it. I had a lovely celebration.

Marc David

Yeah. That’s the part of you that’s hungering to express itself, and I think the more that part of you expresses itself, the healthier you’ll be, the more self-care will become natural to you, and the more the voice of the wise-woman speaks to the people in your world and speaks to you.

You feeling good about our conversation, Lee?

Lee

Very good.

Marc David

Yeah, me too. I just have 1,000% confidence that you’re already helping people and you’re already inspiring people. I think you’re going to see that happening more and more as you relax. It’s almost as if you’re in a phase of life where you’re giving it all away. You’re just giving yourself. Therefore, you can’t hold back when you give yourself. You just have to be confident in “here’s me”. What a beautiful thing to own your body at age 60.

Lee

Yeah.

Marc David

Great work, Lee.

Lee

Thank you.

Marc David

Thank you so much. Thanks for being in this conversation.

Lee

It’s wonderful. I’m really appreciative. I feel very blessed.

Marc David

Me too. It’s a conversation that matters. I love it, and I really appreciate you. Thanks so much.

Lee

Thank you.

Marc David

Take care everybody.