The Therapeutic Use of Food in Times of Grief or Loneliness – In Session with Marc David

Marc David
Welcome, everybody. I’m Marc David, founder of the Institute for the Psychology of Eating. We are in the Psychology of Eating podcast, and I’m with Debra today. Welcome, Debra.

Debra
Thank you, Marc.

Marc David
So the idea here is you and I get to do a session together, and see if we can move you forward. So if you could wave your magic wand and get whatever you wanted with food and body, what would that be for you?

Debra
Yeah. I think, definitely, one thing would be that I would enjoy food more, but just enjoying the eating itself, enjoying the taste of food, enjoying the slowing down and feeling connected to food. When it comes to body, then it would be — I still have moments of shame. And normally it’s much, much less. But recently, I gained a little bit weight. And I noticed — I was thinking about going dancing, and I was thinking, “Oh, I gained some weight, you know. People will see it.” And as I was getting ready for this session, I was thinking, “Oh, that’s how I was as a kid” — as a teenager, I should say. That’s when it started. There’s still that kind of a teenager there, lingering, wanting to look perfect. And, yeah.

Marc David
So you’d want to feel more comfortable and good about your body. And with food, what doesn’t work? Let’s frame it like that. What do you do that doesn’t work for you?

Debra
I eat too much in the evening. Evening’s a time for me to de-stress, but the way I do it with food is, you know, I have some indigestion during the night and I get — I just feel there’s something, you know, a little bit compulsive or something like that. Just a part of me wants to disconnect, numb or something. And I gained some weight because it became a habit, maybe several months ago, or something like that.

Marc David
So are you reaching for food after you have dinner? Is that what you notice?

Debra
Yes, some of that. Definitely sweet, some sweets, something sweet. And also just wanting to sit in front of my computer, watching a movie and eating. Sometimes I would have a dinner like, around 5:30, to eat early enough so I don’t get hungry. But then, still, around 8:00, I want something. Yeah. Oh, maybe I wouldn’t eat dinner until 7:30, and then it would be, like, a meal that’s too big. And then I get a piece of bread and cheese. And then I get some jam, and kind of goes too much.

Marc David
And you said that you tend to be a fast eater?

Debra
You know, I think it’s fast. And also, I’ve been really trying — and I have times when I can — taste food and feel connected to food. And the part of me that doesn’t feel connected to food is strong still. If I’m at a retreat, for example, and meditate a lot, then I can really feel taste. But that other part is very strong. Yeah, sorry.

Marc David
So if you were more connected to food, what do you imagine that would look like and feel like?

Debra
Yeah, that’s a good question. I think I would slow down. I would have a lovely table arrangement with candles, music, maybe some flowers. I would really enjoy the food. Really sort of celebrate life. I think that’s what I’m missing. Yeah, celebrate myself and celebrate life and celebrate food and my body — like, all of it.

Marc David
Yeah, I like that. In a way, that’s probably one of the ultimate expressions of being in relationship with food, where it’s a celebration. It means there’s enough food to eat, and to not starve. And it means you’re enjoying it, and being grateful for it, and enjoying being alive. So are you in a relationship? Married?

Debra
I’m in a relationship. And I’m going through a big change. We are breaking up. And it’s a good breakup. It’s conscious. And we are very friendly with each other. But there’s a sense of loss. And, yeah.

Marc David
How long had you been together?

Debra
Almost four years.

Marc David
And before that?

Debra
Before that, I was married. And my late husband passed away in 2017. Yeah.

Marc David
Are you still — how is that for you? Do you feel like you’ve done your grieving with that? Is that still present for you?

Debra
It’s a great question. It still shows up. I’m just kind of tuning in a little bit. I mean, what I want to say, now — it’s coming for me, as you’re asking me about my relationships. I think that evening eating has to do with loneliness. And I think food, for me, and loneliness are very — intimacy that I yearn for in relationship, food is providing it in some way.

Marc David
Yes. I was thinking the same thing. Really. You seem like an intimate person. And that intimacy is something you value, when it’s just part of what feeds you. And, you know, losing a long term partner –not easy. And any kind of breakup, even if it’s good. You know, the challenge is — evening time, I find we as humans — evening is an interesting time. It can be vulnerable. Because it’s the end of the day. And oftentimes, at the end of the day, you do wish to relax. The sun has gone down. And traditionally, you want to get cozy. You want to stay warm. You want to hunker down. You want to be protected and inward, and you want to feel safe.

And safety means different things. But safety means I’m not alone. And safety means I’m okay, and I have connection. And so we desire that at night. I think that’s a very natural desire — intimacy, connection, safety, love. Because at nighttime, we’re not doing anything else, but just winding down and letting the day go and preparing to go off into dreamland. So there’s a gradual letting go. So when you say, you know, you can just sit down and watch some entertainment, and you want to eat — you know, that makes sense. It’s a way to let go of the day. But sometimes, the way we let go of the day, we let go of ourselves too.

Debra
Yeah, that’s great. I think that’s what I’m doing now.

Marc David
So I just want to emphasize that to, me, it makes perfect sense that, if you’re feeling lonely in the evening time, or you’re not feeling connection, we will do something to feel connected. So if I don’t have my loved one to turn to, or if I don’t have my dog or my cat, or my children, or something that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy — turn to food. Because food makes us feel good. And it’s the easiest substitute for love and intimacy and pleasure and connection. Eat, you feel better. You eat — I mean, eating is very intimate, right? It’s a very intimate experience. You’re taking something that’s not you, and you’re bringing it inside your body. And your body has to somehow absorb it and make it part of your body, and get rid of what doesn’t work for your body. But all I’m saying is eating is a beautifully intimate act. And it’s a natural place that we might go to when we’re not getting intimacy in other places.

Debra
Yeah. It’s interesting when you said — what did you say? I had a tinge of guilt, and I caught myself. But you said something, like, something about turning to food when I when I don’t get intimate in other ways, with anyone. And I had a tinge of guilt. And then you continued talking about how that’s normal. And then that’s why — how I caught myself there. I had that moment of guilt. Yeah.

Marc David
I think that’s part of feeling connected to food. Because on the one hand, we are connected to food, because we’re eaters and we need food to stay alive. But on the other hand, if I feel guilty when I eat, I will disconnect from it. If I think, “Oh my god, I shouldn’t be eating this. It’s bad for me.” Or, “Oh, my God, I’m eating. This is going to make me fat.” So that makes me feel shameful or guilty. And therefore, I’m not going to want to fully experience what it is I’m doing, I will disconnect or disembody in some way. Even though I want to eat the food, and I’m eating the food to make me feel better.

At the same time, if I say, “No, this is bad. You shouldn’t be doing this, you should feel guilty,” in a lot of ways, it’s oftentimes the guilt that’s contributing to that sense of disconnection. What if, if you eat at night, it’s actually part of your ritual? You literally make it a ritual. Because right now, it’s a ritual. It’s just a ritual that’s not in your control. So if you make it a ritual that’s in your control, you decide, “I’m going to eat something at night.” And you plan what that’s going to be. And you understand: “I’m making this a ritual because — you know, something? It makes me feel good, gives me pleasure, helps me feel connected. And I enjoy this.”

If you did that, and you planned “okay, I’m going to have” — whatever it is that you think will satisfy you. Whatever it is that you think will be somewhat healthy for you. Whatever amount you feel is doable for you. Like, “I can feel good about that amount.” And then when you eat it, you feel connected to it, you invite connection. Because you’re choosing to do it. Right now you’re doing the behavior, but you’re not choosing to do it. So rather than stop the behavior — “oh, no, I shouldn’t do this behavior.” But you’re doing it anyway. Let’s first — I think, first step is: choose to do the behavior. So you can see how it benefits you. And so you can see that the behavior doesn’t control you. You’re choosing it. And you’re choosing to be connected to the food, and you’re choosing to get what you want out of it, which is some pleasure and some intimacy and some connection, and a way to have something that you’d like to eat at the end of the day that makes you feel good. Because you’re just lived a day and you deserve a little — a little something.

Debra
It’s very interesting. I mean, I love everything that you’re saying. And I can feel, you know, “Oh, that makes sense.” You know? I could actually feel like — oh, I can connect. I can use it as a way to connect.

Marc David
Exactly. Because then what you’re doing is — by connecting with food, really what you’re doing is you’re connecting with yourself. And it’s interesting because, with food, we often do one of two things. We can use food to fill ourselves up. Like, “Oh, I’m taking this in. Oh, this tastes good. Oh, this feels good.” Or we could use food to check out. Sit in front of TV. Just eat mindlessly. Don’t pay attention. And food could literally help us check out. Now, the two are different. But they can feel the same somehow. Meaning, I do want to let go of my day. But you don’t have to let go of connection with yourself, as you’re letting go of the day. You can still be present with yourself. You could still be present with the food, and what you’re doing. You can be present with — however you’re entertaining yourself.

Debra
There’s this distinction between letting go of the day or, you know, in my mind, what showed up — letting go of stress, tension. But not letting go of myself. And I’m curious about this need to check out completely. You know. I’m seeing it in myself and other people that I work with. Feels almost like a hungry ghost. I’m not sure if it’s hungry. It feels ghostly, this need to check out complete.

Marc David
Yes. You know, the checking out piece, it’s — checking out, I think can benefit us. And it can also be a drawback. So I think it can be both. Because sometimes we just need to let go in a way that works. If I go sit in a movie theater, I check out. I’m not at home, I’m not in my car, I’m not in front of my computer. I’m in this fantasy world of the movie, if I’m watching a movie at home, or a TV show, I’m surrendering presence to a whole different experience. So there’s a certain way that I’m checking out. I’m not necessarily paying attention to my body when I’m watching a movie. So, checking out is okay when we’re doing it in a way that works for us. Oftentimes, we check out. And we check out by using drugs. Or we check out by using excess alcohol, excess sugar, or excess food. Or excessive entertainment. We go into excess. Excessive stimulation can actually check us out.

So I think it’s good to maintain an awareness that, “I’m letting go of something. I’m leaving my day behind. And I want to let go of tension and stress. How can I do that in a way that works for me?” You might be able to do the very same behaviors — eating food — but in a way that works for you. Being present to it. Enjoying it. Not going into guilt. Not going into shame. Getting the pleasure that you want from that experience. Because pleasure helps relax us. Pleasure is relaxing. It literally catalyzes a relaxation response in the body. So it makes sense that we’d want to do pleasurable things at night. Because it literally decommissions the stress response.

Debra
Yeah, I feel I was almost polarized. Like, either I check out. I mean, I kind of coupled checking out and relaxation and I think [inaudible]. I thought maybe those two parts were sort of polarized, you know? Yes. I need to check out. I need to — you know — there’s no need to polarize them. Yeah.

Marc David
Yes. So it’s — I need to let go. I need to let go of stress. I need to leave my day behind. I need to do something that makes me feel good, that’s just for me. That’s completely reasonable. And food and entertainment — those are those are great ways to let go. And you might also consider making an inventory for yourself making a list of what else? What else can you do in the evening that can serve the function of helping you destress? Let go of tension, feel some pleasure. And let go the day. Because there might be things other than what you do that you add into the mix here and there.

Debra
What did you mean other things that will help me relax?

Marc David
Yes. Maybe it’s listening to music. Maybe it’s taking a bath. Maybe it’s doing some gentle movement or stretching. Maybe it’s getting on the phone with somebody that you can just be intimate with — a best friend over the phone, and just have a check-in call.

Debra
It’s interesting. Well, you’re saying that and sensing something like there’s a part of me — I’m using just that word part. And it’s just kind of a way to describe something — that felt it needed to check out from life. Probably formed very early. I’m just sensing. I’m not being — I’m describing it in kind of theoretical ways. But I’m sensing it. As you were saying, it’s just showing up. Like, I was almost afraid since my childhood to engage with life. And so it was just easier to disengage. And I remember clearly things from childhood, you know — disengaging with food. So that that’s kind of a — yeah, that’s wonderful to see that.

Marc David
I have noticed that it’s a useful practice for some of us, for many of us to remind ourselves that we are agreeing to be in our own life. We’re agreeing to be alive. Because what happens is, oftentimes, we’re actually not in agreement with the reality that I’m alive. I’m here. I’m on planet Earth. This is me. This is my body. This is my house. This is my age. This is my job. This is what I do. This is the world. This is my past. This is my present. If I don’t like all that, or some of it — if I’m resisting it, or if I had the old habit from a young age of disengaging, or checking out — and if we have that habit from a young age, it’s always for a good reason.

We learn from a young age to check out because life is too difficult, we disembody, we check out of the body because something’s hurting us. Something’s not working for us. Traumas, hurts, abuses, losses, bad upbringing, poor parenting — whatever it is that people experience, that children experience. Children don’t know how to handle these things. So one of the ways that a child handles it is, they can act out. Children will often act out. And they can also check out. We can check out through drugs, we can check out through food, we can check out through all kinds of things. So we’ll take those strategies, we’ll bring them into adulthood, not even knowing that we’re doing that. And I find that for an adult one of the best remedies for that is to really, consciously choose your life. Really affirm, “I want my life. I want this body.”

When we say, you know, “Well, I’m not so happy with the body. I know I gained some weight.” — so that’s a conversation that we learned from the world. Body’s not good enough, needs to be more perfect, needs to look like this, look like that. You can be the hottest person in the world and you still might have that voice in your head that goes, “Yeah, but if was only this different, then it would be really perfect.” So that inner conversation is, I think, part and parcel of being on planet Earth. It’s very difficult to be alive in this world and not have the inner critic. criticizing us — particularly, criticizing the body. Especially happens for women. More and more, happens for men.

So one of the good, balancing equations is to contact the part of you that can say, “You know something? I’ve been on the planet a bunch of decades now. And I know these things are not really as important as I think they are, as I’m making it out to be in the moment. And I choose this body. Even though it looks like this, and it looks like that, and it might have gained a few pounds, I choose this body, I want this body.” You find that place in you. Because choosing this body, wanting this body is the same as choosing life. I choose my life, even though I might have had difficulties as a child. I’m still choosing the whole package, because it happened.

Debra
Yeah.

Marc David
How old? Are you, Debra?

Debra
59.

Marc David
59, yeah. Well, this is the perfect time in life, as you approach 60, to start to make peace with your journey. To just really make peace. And you can — we can continue to do work on our past. I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Sometimes it just happens. It needs to come up. It needs to surface. I suspect for you, because you’re a little more sophisticated, that if that need comes up, you’ll know about it. I think more of a useful strategy at age 59, transitioning to 60, is — “I completely accept my journey.” Because you really have no other choice, if you think about it. You can say, “Well, I don’t accept any of this that happened.” Okay, what are you going to do about it? It’s sort of looking back on your life and blessing your journey. Because it’s your journey. It’s the journey you had. And this is the body that you’ve had. And this is the body that you have now. And, all things considered, it’s still here. It’s still working for you. It still enables you to communicate, talk and smile, and live your life, and eat some food, and enjoy.

Debra
Yeah. It’s interesting. I’ve worked through so many of these things, you know. Especially around my body. In some way, I do feel now better about my body than when I was — my early 20s or something, you know. So but then, there was still this — is still this layer of shame, which came up recently. With this, I didn’t gain much weight, but I’m a few pounds more than usually. And I was a little bit surprised about that — just that voice came up. And I think it’s maybe a maturation process. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Enneagram. I’m number two in Enneagram. And we are given us and helpers. But we also have pride. And I was thinking when I read it, “No, I don’t have pride.” And then I realized — oh, I do. Around my body. I want to show up at dance — this local community — really looking great. You know? And there was this pride, you know, that showed up. And anyway, I see — you know, I’m into meditation and mindfulness. I see how am I hurting myself. And how it’s unreal.

Marc David
Yes. So I think that’s great. And I think there’s a place where it can be easy. For you. I don’t necessarily say this to everybody, because we’re all at a different place in our journey. Where I am imagining you’re at in your journey is that, if shame about your body comes up, I wish for you to not overthink that. Yeah, there’s that old shame again. It surfaced. That’s interesting. Yeah, still there to some degree. And you don’t have to feed it. You don’t have to fix it. You don’t have to do anything about it. Other than notice it, and not give it attention. Because what happens is, there’s a part of us that — “Oh, I’m doing that.” And it grabs us because, well, maybe I do feel shame. And here’s what I feel ashamed about. And it’s about my body. And all of a sudden, you’ve time traveled back to your past. Back to that young girl again, who didn’t feel good about herself.

So it’s all about time-shifting for you, and staying in present time. Staying in your current incarnation, staying in your queen, staying in your royalty, staying in your wise woman. So that child in you, that young girl in you, is always gonna be there. She’s your innocence. She’s your youth. She’s your sweetness. Yeah, and she’s also the part of you that was wounded and had challenges like every other young person who ever has been born. So bring her with you. You don’t have to fix it. Big hug. Yeah. There’s the part of me just feels a little shame. And wish I, you know, could look a little better. Nothing to fix there. Notice it, bless it, smile at it, laugh at it. Love that little girl in you. Just bring her along with you.

Debra
Yeah, it’s great that you pointed out that, you know, that I actually don’t have to go back into the past. I know my ability to choose is so much stronger than before, you know. So it’s — I can choose. And at the times when I couldn’t, I would be hijacked, you know. But now I can. I actually had an image of myself dancing and really having fun, you know. I now can do it in my life. There were times when I couldn’t, you know. So, yeah.

Marc David
So, being connected to food is really being more connected to yourself. And being connected to yourself means doing the things that you’re doing anyway. So if you’re going to eat, yeah. If you’re going to do that ritual — that ritual in the evening time, for you, is there for reason. And a good reason. Because for now that’s working for you. That’s the way to feel connected, pleasured, relaxed and intimate. So let’s be present to that, and make it work for you. And enjoy it. Look forward to it. And slowing down with it means that you’re not checking out. You’re actually being there and getting what you want from the experience. Because the guilt — once again, the guilt is going to say to the mind, “This is bad. You shouldn’t be doing this.” And therefore, it’s a crime. In order for us to commit a crime, a part of our consciousness — we have to push it down. We have to go to sleep, in order to do something that’s against our own moral code. So if you make eating bad, then you’re going to want to check out because it’s going against your moral code. You think you’re committing a crime. And all I’m saying is, there’s no crime here. Innocent. Not guilty.

Debra
Yeah, I can see that. Yeah.

Marc David
And when the shame comes up — if it comes up around your body, notice it. Bless it. And let the queen in you observe it. Understand that it’s the young girl in you who’s feeling the shame. Not the queen in you. She doesn’t feel shame. She knows who she is. She can go to dance, and move and have a great time. Yeah, it’s the young girl that can’t do that.

Debra
So I think it’s coming up for me, and if you have moment still —

Yeah, loneliness, you know. It’s been coming. I mentioned it a little bit. And now I’ll be single very soon and living alone in my place. And I was just wondering about that. I’m wondering if you have any intuition, or anything? I know that food has, for me, that loneliness connection.

Marc David
Of course. Yes, yes.

Yes. Yes. Loneliness is a very challenging emotional experience to deal with. Loneliness will have us doing all kinds of things that don’t support us. Loneliness will — can take us down. It can take us down in our mood. It can bring us down into depression. It can bring us, oddly, into more isolation. Because when we’re feeling lonely, it’s own momentum. And lonely people don’t even want to go out. Because I feel lonely. And you don’t want to be around other humans. So I think it’s important. Sometimes we need to be alone, which is different from loneliness. One could be alone, by myself, and not necessarily feel lonely.

So I think there’s two approaches. When you’re actually alone, like there’s nobody else here — how can I be in my aloneness, such that I still have connection with myself, I’m not abandoning myself, and I’m doing things that nourish me? If we nourish ourselves in our aloneness, in our alone time, then — way better experience. If I’m not nourished in my aloneness, I become lonely. So I think it’s looking at, again, all the practices you can do, when you’re alone, that nourish you.

On the other side, I want to see you protect against falling into loneliness. And that really means, for you, just — I think, or for anybody, is looking at my life, and saying, “Okay, if I’m alone, right now, I’m not gonna be in a relationship anymore — how do I stay in connection with other humans?” Basically. “How do I go the extra mile, so that I have people around me, I have activities, I have humans around me, and I’m feeling that sense of connection?” It might mean that you create a little zoom support group. With you and other single friends. Where you get to meet, you know, a couple of times a week. I mean it. It means you might just have regular connection. Even if it’s on the internet. Again, even if it’s over zoom. So you can just be real and talk, and feel connection, and feel some kind of social intimacy.

Debra
I think that’s a great idea, yeah.

Marc David
So you have to be proactive here. Understanding yourself like, “What do I need, so that I don’t feel lonely?” And for most people, that means connection. So it’s kind of pushing the pedal to the metal on staying connected in ways that work for you. Whether it’s through special interests, whether it’s through going to dance classes, whether it’s making sure that most evenings there’s something — there’s some activity, there’s some connection you’re having with another human being, there’s some class you’re going to, there’s some person you’re getting together with.

Debra
Yeah. Do you have any insights about when the body feels lonely? And I’m kind of sensing a little bit, as you’re helping me greatly with all of those things. Like, doing something, maybe physically — martial arts. And just wondering if you have that — my body loves another body, you know. It’s just how I am wired.

Marc David
Yes, yes, yes. I think any kind of dance that you can do. Any dance, any movement, anything that attracts you. And part of it’s also what’s available in your area. You know, sometimes it’s less about the form of the movement, and more about the teacher. It’s a good teacher, or it’s a good community. There are martial arts communities that are just really good. And there’s a lot of camaraderie. So I think it’s just exploring what you feel drawn to. And I think it’s just so good that you know this about yourself. And I think it’s true for so many people. But it’s just a hard reality that, when there’s not another body around, and when my body is not connected to another body, it doesn’t feel so good.

You know, we are communal creatures. You know, dogs love to hang out with other dogs. Cats, you know. Our our pet cat — they don’t want to be alone. You know. They need other cats, and they need people. And so we need other bodies. And it takes a little more courage, I think, to stay connected in that way. Because we can get shy about that. So whatever experience is around you. If there’s friends that you have that you can exchange massage with. Foot rubs, you know. Whatever it is, that just keeps your body not feeling lonely.

Debra
Yeah, that’s a great idea. Exchanging massages. Yeah. I’m going through a big shift of being focused on one person. And I think my whole system is learning that. I have the tendency to be preoccupied with a partner or husband, and kind of forget about the rest of the world. And I felt lonely, like missing friends, even when relationship was functioning perfectly. So this is a chance to make that shift.

Marc David
Yes, and it could be really good medicine, just being out there. And being more social, and — do you tend to be more of an introvert, an extrovert?

Debra
Introvert.

Marc David
Yeah, so this is a little bit of an introvert nightmare then. So and, you know, part of it is also finding support. You might have a friend or friends. Like, I’m an introvert, and I’ve always had good friends who are extroverts. Because when I have a good extrovert friend, I get to go to parties, and I get to go to events. And I get to have somebody pulling me along, because they’re the extrovert. So you do whatever you can to stay connected. Even if it’s not the perfect, perfect situations. Still, staying in connection oftentimes is better than feeling really lonely. And again, for an introvert, it’s just important to get as much help and support from your already existing circle of people, to help you get out there. Do you have somebody you can appoint as your social director? Or social [inaudible] in your life?

Debra
Not yet, but I’m thinking potentially about one person. A woman also who is single, and for a while outside the relationship. So I just saw her recently. So, yeah. Yeah, social director. Yeah, I know that I need to find someone. Maybe actually, maybe one friend. Okay, yeah, that’s possible. Yeah. Thank you so much. It’s super helpful to talk to you.

Marc David
Yeah, I think we covered some good turf together.

Debra
Yeah, we did. Yeah.

Marc David
Well, Debra, I’m gonna say thank you. Great work. Great job. Thanks for being so open and so self-revealing, and so smart and intuitive. I really appreciate you.

Debra
Thank you, Marc. A special treat for me.

Marc David
All right. Thanks, everybody for tuning in. Take care, my friends.