Why We Need to Get Rid of the Term ‘Body Dysmorphia’ – In Session with Marc David

Why We Need to Get Rid of the Term ‘Body Dysmorphia’ – In Session with Marc David

Marc David
Welcome, everybody. I’m Marc David, founder of the Institute for the Psychology of Eating. We’re back in the Psychology of Eating Podcast. I’m with Rory today. Welcome, Rory.

Rory
Thanks very much Marc.

Marc David
Glad we’re here. Glad we’re doing this in case anybody is new to the podcast here. What we’re doing is Rory and I are meeting for the first time and we get to do a session together to see if we can make some good things happen. So, Rory, if you could wave your magic wand and get whatever you wanted with food and body, what would that be for you?

Rory
My main overriding issue has always been body dysmorphia. My ability to control my eating has been really okay. I’m one of those few individuals I believe, who can use willpower to eat what I want have certainly done over many, many years. But my big issue is it doesn’t matter what I eat, what I do the dysmorphia, it really has played a significant negative role in my life. And it’s always there. And yeah, I’ve tried so many different methods to dilute it, to try and move it, but failed miserably to be honest with it.

Marc David
So Rory how does body dysmorphia show up for you? What happens in your mind? What do you tell yourself?

Rory
Never good enough. Never where I want to be. Mirrors, windows, whatever. I mean, that’s always the the light that reminds me very, very quickly how I avoid them. And it’s there all the time. Marc. It’s literally been with me since I can remember.

Marc David
So if you could just have the exact body that you wanted, what would it look like?

Rory
It would be a 400 meter runner on the Olympic track, you know that type of body? Not too bulky but athletic.

Marc David
So that would mean more muscle for you less body fat. Is that true?

Rory
My BMI I’ve always kept it in a sort of that 8 or 9% or a 10% whatever. So it’s not fat but the muscle yes. It’s trying to try to remain I”m naturally thin and over my years I’ve put muscle on. Let it go a few a few times. Maybe in the last four years I’ve lost muscle for various different reasons.

Marc David
When did you first started noticing that this was going on in your mind. That you just weren’t satisfied with where your body was at and just couldn’t get there?

Rory
Consciously, probably in my mid 20s. Looking at it, it’s always been there but because I’ve lived with it all my life I don’t think I really recognized it for what it was. But it was in my mid 20s and then obviously on the course with the mirror work and things like that I really got to confront it more, that’s for sure.

Marc David
So you think it was always there even when you were a child?

Rory
Yeah, definitely. I can definitely see from a child from my dad. My dad was fat phobic. And my sister really suffered from that. She was couple of years older than me. But yeah, I grew up in a family where you know, my sister got weighed every day and soon as my dad came back from something, from a trip aboard from the forces, you know the first thing he would do is weigh my sister and some of the emotional stuff that came from that, the anger etc. And so, I’m assuming but it seems pretty obvious that it came from there and wanting to be what my dad wanted me to be. And I was an incredibly skinny little kid growing up in Britain. We didn’t get much food back then.

Marc David
So how old are you now?

Rory
62

Marc David
Is your dad still alive?

Rory
Just died two months. I’m sat in his house at the moment. It’s been two months.

Marc David
And how is your sister doing these days relative to her body, her weight?

Rory
She’s morbidly obese. It definitely took its toll on her. And yeah.

Marc David
So have there been times in your life, where you’ve noticed that the inner voice calms down a little bit, and you’re not as critical? Or you’re not as “Oh, my body needs to be different!”

Rory
It literally never goes away. Doesn’t matter how many compliments whatever they just literally fall on deaf ears. Although, you know, you like to hear them. But that’s a good question!

Probably only, I mean, I’ve always done extreme sports, climbing, kayaking, blah, blah, blah, things like that. And when I’m on expedition, you know, you’re up the face on you know, El Capitan or something them it all disappears. It really does and I truly do relish those moments because, you know, we talk about presence and that is, to me, that is presence. And everything disappears. But it’s quite beautiful. But it’s always there that as I say a window, whatever. But there are no windows going down whitewater and things like that so you’re okay.

But soon as soon as there is. And it’s quite…demeaning springs to mind. I pride myself in facing many, many things. But this this one, as I say, it is significant.

Marc David
Yes. You know, especially because it’s been there for the majority of your life. And it defies whatever efforts you’ve made to let it go. So are you in a relationship these days?

Rory
Yes, I’m married again. 11 years ago, my wife from when we came from Britain, she died suddenly, she had a pulmonary embolism and that was interesting. I was left with five kids. She had a good sense of humor. And so that was interesting, but five years ago, I got remarried and I’m in a really beautiful, loving relationship. And yeah, fantastic relationship.

Marc David
Are the kids are grown now?

Rory
My my twin boys are 18 now and my oldest is 25.

Marc David
How would you say your kids relationships with their bodies are?

Rory
Um, they’re all incredibly athletic, but that’s not what you’re asking. There is a lot of anxiety around health Marc. Everybody’s got that. And if I’m being authentic, you know, even though I hide it really well, I have thoughts that I get rid of really quickly. But it’s certain that that anxiety is certainly with me as well, you know.

Marc David
Thoughts about getting sick or getting a disease?

Rory
Yeah, I mean, touch wood I never do. Without being funny I never get sick and never have colds, anything like that. But yes, you know, it’s things like that the anxiety can come up, you know a mole or something like that it’s straightaway thinking about the worst scenario, but within 30 seconds, you know, I can, I’m not sure if I’m denying it, or I’m processing it, I’m not sure but I can move away from it. But certainly the kids they all suffer from that, which is interesting. It’s obviously something that runs through the family.

Marc David
So, before your dad died, how was your relationship with him?

Rory
It was almost like a miracle happened. Because you know, like most young men, I just wanted to make my dad happy you know, by being what he wanted me to be. And over the years, you know, that turned to hatred, really, if I’m being honest. And, but we always, you know, I’ve always my dad has been over in New Zealand, with my mum, who flew over here for 20 odd years, they’ve sort of followed us over, after a couple of years that we came over. And we’ve done a lot together and had a lot of experiences together. But there was like a miracle happened in the last few years. My mum died a couple of years ago, and he became very dependent on me, he just lived around the corner. And all the way up to his death it really was quite beautiful the way it morphed into genuine love, and forgiveness. And that was remarkable. That was really remarkable. And I was there, it was just him and I when he died and it was a very, very, really special. And I do feel so much love for him now. And all those feelings, I say the miracle is they’ve gone. All those feelings of hate and whatever. And no, I would not have used that word. But that’s what it was. And it’s not a word I use lightly. But I think I genuinely did hate him. And I can say that now because now it’s been replaced with love. And it’s very, very different. A very, very different feeling.

Marc David
Can you say more about what you think shifted in you? What realization you had? I get that just the experience of being close with him and him being dependent on you and feeling the love? And maybe that’s the answer. But was there anything else that you said to yourself or that you realized that helped the forgiveness happen?

Rory
I mean, it was watching his vulnerability. I mean, he’s a big, six foot bloody Glaswegian, who never showed, you know, typical in that area and never showed an emotion or expressed an emotion. You know, all my life, there was never a hug, never a kiss and all the things I do for my boys, we hug and kiss all the time, but my dad obviously it just wasn’t his thing. And as a young boy, that was very much. And it was interesting to see him become vulnerable, and start to express emotion, especially after my mum died. And that really started to break that cast iron view I had of him. And that he didn’t need anything. He didn’t need forgiveness. Didn’t need anything. Didn’t need me in so many ways. So, yeah, and many other things. I mean, I went from atheist to doing A Course in Miracles maybe 10 or 11 years ago. And that has flipped my world upside down, you know. As from not believing in anything to understanding that the only thing that is, is forgiveness and love and truly knowing that and living that now. And where before you know it wasn’t part of my vocabulary, and certainly not anything in the feeling aspect of things.

Marc David
You know, Rory, a couple of things that are coming to my mind as we’re talking and one of them is that oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes, a man’s relationship with his body will track or be similar to his relationship with his father. So my relationship with my father, and my relationship with my body will be very similar, particularly in terms of what was cast from the beginning. Meaning from the beginning with your dad, the relationship, in part was, whoa, this is my dad and you know, he’s the big person in my life. Other than my mother, the two biggest, most important people when, we’re young, our parents are gods, you know, we come from them. And here is your dad. And what you’re noticing is he’s stern, he’s rigid, he’s a military man and he’s letting the kids know and you can see this, especially with your sister, he’s letting her know, your love and acceptance, your loveability, and acceptability is dependent on how much you weigh and how you look.

So you are the smart observer as a child, and you observed Woah! Dad’s really strict, particularly with my sister, he weighs her. And basically what he’s saying, as soon as he comes back, he weighs so so what he’s saying is, your love ability, my child, depends on how I think you look and weight. And if that measures up to me. So you see that and you go, my lovability, my acceptability depends on how much I weigh and how I look. And it’s easy as a young man, to have an ideal, it’s easy as a woman to have an ideal, we see the ideal out there. You see it in the movies and comics in, you know, superheroes, and whatever it is, you figure out really quick, what the ideal is, I gotta be big, strong, and not have any body fat as a man. And you know, you’ll pick your particular ideal that you land on. Okay, I got to look like this, you know, amazingly live runner, world class Olympics, so that, if I do that, okay, I’m lovable. I’m safe. I’m good. I’m accepted. I don’t have to worry. I’ll never have to be weighed, I’ll never have to be assessed or judged. Because if I’m perfect.

Kids are brilliant observers. But very poor interpreters. So we observe, oh, I need to look a certain way in order to be lovable. And we interpret that as therefore I need to be perfect. I will find the ideal of perfect that I think fits here. And I will aspire to that. So that’s the most logical and wise interpretation you can make as a child, that anyone can make as a child. And it was a smart interpretation, given your level of understanding and wisdom at that point. Because we’re dependent on our parents. Without them we’re in trouble. So I have to make sure they love me.

So relationship with your body for a man oftentimes tracks relationship with Father so relationship with Father was, I need to be perfect and now your relationship with your body is, body, you need to be perfect.

Rory
Yeah, that hit, that really did. It’s funny, I’ve never associated that. I did when my sister about how it had but never, never, I realized that my dad wanted me to be you know, this, that whatever and fit. My physical body, for whatever reason, academically, my dad never had any aspirations for me whatsoever. But physically, he wanted me to be a man.

Marc David
Yeah

Rory
As a kid, he thought I was effeminate so he literally tried to beat that out of me. And I wasn’t effeminate, I was just a very, very gentle young boy. But yeah, and at 16 I joined the Royal Marine commandos. Stayed there for 22 years, became a PTI. You know, it was all physical. Everything was how physical could I go? How physically challenging, you know, and everything I’ve done is Body Challenge. Obviously, academically I’ve gone down that road as well now. But it’s always been everything I’ve done academically, is always around body, always.

Marc David
Because that’s what you learn from a young age. You learned, your dad, who is your role model. You’re a boy, your dad’s your role model. You’re a girl, your mom’s your role model. I don’t care what anybody says. And you learned you understood, whether you consciously were aware of it or not, I gotta be toughened up here. Why? Because my dad says, so. Why did he say so? Because that’s what he learned. That’s what he was taught. So he wasn’t a bad guy. That’s what he learned. That’s the world he grew up in. He grew up in a world that was more like, Okay, you can’t be a sensitive young man. You can’t be a sensitive soul, so you got to be physically strong if you want to survive. Why? Because there’s tough people out there, there’s fighting, there’s war, and you got to protect yourself, you’ve got to protect your family.

So he was taught the value of you have to be physically strong and fit and able to be a man who is self sufficient, and can protect those around you, including your own kids. So that’s the unconscious model. That’s that’s the model he was given, and that’s the model you absorb from him.

Rory
Yeah.

Marc David
And as you said, we want our parents love. I want my dad to love me. How do I how do I get his love? Um, I’m becoming the person you said I should become? Like, look at what I can do with my body. I’m strong. I’m a guy. I’m not sensitive. I’m not sweet. I’m not kind. I’m tough.

Rory
That is so true. I’m just laughing because my dad about a year ago, he was moaning about something and I remember him just saying to me, Oh, my God, you’re tough. You’re tough, hard, man. You know, in my response to some of his moans. And I just remember being so shocked that he said that and saw the irony. Oh, my God, I’m tough. You know, I’m tough and whatever. You know, obviously my dad to me. I’m just a little boy. A little soft boy, still with my father. But yeah.

Marc David
So that right there is for you what I think is still happening. So all the body dysmorphia is take away the term Body Dysmorphia for a moment, and let’s look at this just as a story. Let’s look at your life as a story. And understand why you have this kind of relationship with your body. Let’s call it a relationship. My relationship with my body is such that, yeah, I look in the mirror, I look in a window and I think just not good enough. Gotta be stronger, tougher, leaner, etc. And I can’t seem to get that thought out of my head. That’s just my relationship with my body. And what you and I are doing right now is we’re just breaking it down and understanding why that for you makes perfect sense. Why there’s actually nothing quote unquote wrong with you. But why that belief? Why that behavior, why that way you talk to yourself, actually makes perfect sense. Again, you’re growing up, you’re a young child, you see what your father values. This is what I need to do to be loved and accepted. So I better do this really, really, really well. So you’re a high achiever kind of person and you’re like, Okay, if this is what I got to do, to be loved to be tough and strong, I’m going to do it as good as humanly possible.

But the problem is that we can’t realize when we’re young, is that what we’re looking for is just a moment of, I’m lovable as I am. I’m okay as I am. I don’t need to be any different. If any of your children came to you right now, and said, Dad, you know, I’m not feeling good about my body, I wish it looked different. You wouldn’t say, you know, you’re right and I’m not going to love you until your body changes. You wouldn’t say that to them. You wouldn’t even think of saying that to them. It woudn’t even be in your worst nightmare to say that to them. But we interject, we take in the voices that we heard from the outside, and then we make it our own. So your dad didn’t need to keep telling you the message of you need to be strong and tough once you moved out of the house once you became your own person, because that voice was already in there.

Rory
Yeah.

Marc David
So there’s a part of you a part of you, that’s still a child, in relationship to your dad. That’s still that young boy wanting your dad’s approval. Now you said, hey, we had this miracle. I’m able to forgive my father, I can see, you know, wow, we got close and there’s an emotional connection. And there was a human connection and you felt love from him. In part, because he was dependent on you and he was vulnerable. And when you’re getting old and you’re dying, your body ain’t strong and tough anymore. So when the body’s not strong and tough anymore, more of who he really was came out. And just as you learn to forgive him, just as you learn to love and forgive him, that’s your task with your body. Learning to love and forgive your body. Not that it’s done anything wrong. That’s how we actually have to forgive your body but there is a place where because you were angry at your dad, understandably, you weren’t forgiving him, understandably. Because on some part of you knew, like I wasn’t really loved and accepted by him. I couldn’t feel loved and accepted. I couldn’t feel connected to him. I couldn’t relax with him. I couldn’t be the real me with him. I had to be somebody else. So internally, there was resentment.

Rory
Yeah, yeah.

Marc David
And now it’s the same way towards your body. I can’t really love and accept my body until it’s different. So now you just need to catch up. So now you’ve done some really beautiful work. You’ve had an amazing opportunity, I think, when we’re able to forgive our parents and love them unconditionally, no matter what they did it’s a huge, I think it’s just a huge soul victory. It’s a huge personal victory. Because we’re no longer blaming them. And we can start to live our own life. We see that they did the best that they could do. We see that we’re just two people. Your dad was just some guy. He was just some guy. And these are the things he learned that were important. Yeah, he was your dad but to everybody else. He was a guy. So you learn to forgive and love your dad and now it’s learning to forgive and love your body. And notice that you’re changing the same conversation about your body. Same internal conversation that you have about your body. It was the same internal conversation you had about your dad

Rory
Yeah, I struggle with that. Straight away. I can feel it you know. What you’re saying it’s so logical. And you know, the pathology of it all it really makes such sense, Marc. And it’s just this weird death hate, this there’s something. I look at my life, and it’s almost like I’ve tried to kill my body. And yeah, there’s such a line between these two stories, there’s a story of consciousness of soul, whatever you want to call it. And then there’s this body that is the representation of everything that’s not real and there’s a hatred of it. And when I look in the mirror that reflects back at me. And almost it’s not me and obviously that’s it is a journey we all go on, you know that separation between that. But it does feel insurmountable. Yes, that we need to forgive that my body may be the last symbol of it.

Marc David
Yeah. Perhaps it is. And I hear you that it feels insurmountable. And that’s the miracle that we’re going to look to create the conditions for. So yeah, if you could have done it, you would have done it, you would have figured it out. It’s too much for the mind to try to fix, it’s too big.

So, first, I think it’s just understanding and believing, oh, this is the direction I wish to move in. I don’t know how to get there. Like, maybe you don’t know how to speak Italian. But you know that if you really wanted it to, you can figure out where to go learn it. I don’t know how to do it right now. But you can eventually figure it out. So you don’t know how to love and forgive your body and accept your body and feel that your body is home and you don’t have to be disconnected from it or wanting it to be something different you don’t know how to do that. But that’s what I’m shooting for. So to begin to put that in your sights, because previously, the way your mind frames it is this is insurmountable, it’s too much. Because that’s how it felt as a child. As a child, it’s like this is too much like, Oh, I got to do everything to be perfect in my body. And it’s never enough. Like it was never enough. No matter how tough you became, no matter how athletic you became, it was never enough. And it took your dad’s death, and for the miracle and the connection and the love that happened in there. Where you were able to have compassion for him. You felt him.

So this is about you having compassion for your body, and starting to feel your body. So you’ve been taught to do things to your body. I exercise it, I work it out. Make it do these things. And I make it do these things really well. And that’s great. I mean, that’s amazing. But there’s a part of you that tells your body what to do and your body goes and does it. As opposed to a slightly different relationship which is what’s going on with my body? What’s it feeling like? What’s it asking me for? What does it want from me if my body was like a little boy? What does it want?

It wants the same thing every other little boy or little girl wants it wants to be hugged. Wants to be loved, wants to be accepted, wants to be told, you’re okay. So, the practice to get to the miracle is small, tiny baby step kind acts of love and care and nourishment. And for you I think it’s listening to your body in a different way. Speaking to your body as if it’s a child and asking it what do you need from me? I really, really, really, really.

Rory
Yeah, I punish my body. I punish my body with diet. And I’m so extreme. I went from three years vegan to, you know, a year and a half carnivore. I’m punishing,

Marc David
Your mind is strong enough that you can do that. You can say, Okay, I’m gonna be on a vegan diet for X number of years, I’m gonna be on a carnivore diet for X number, yes, your mind is strong enough that you can do that. Now it’s training your mind to just step back a little bit and go, Oh, I’m punishing my body. Okay. Hmm. What does my body want? And start to be in relationship with it on its own terms. As if it has a voice. Something that might be helpful is for you to write a letter from your body to you. And the letter starts with dear Rory. And imagine your body is very wise, when you’re writing this letter, so you’re sort of channeling the inner voice of your body and the body saying Dear Rory, here’s what I got to say to you.

Here’s all the good things. Here’s all the things I want to thank you for. Here’s all the ways I feel challenged. Here’s what I need from you. So it’s, it’s there’s no admonishment in this. There’s no judgment in it. The body is just talking to you like, it’s your best friend because it is. Yeah.

Rory
I can feel the compassion already.

Marc David
Yes. So it’s starting to feel that. So instead of doing things to the body, my mind tells my body what to do. It’s you being in a more feeling relationship with your body. That’s my body’s saying, what’s it asking for? What is it want? My body doesn’t want to be punished. Nobody wants to be punished. It hurts.

Rory
Yeah, it’s the voice. There’s two voices again, coming up there. One is of God yeah, I want to do that, It’s time to do that. And there’s another thing saying, you know, almost my dad’s voice, or I think it’s my voice now saying, nah, punishment is good. You know, through the fire and the furnace, blah, blah, blah, everything I’ve been taught.

Marc David
Yeah. So let’s just accept that that voice is there. So this is not about fighting that voice? Well, but that voice is there. Of course, it’s there. So let’s just accept that that voice is there. And when that voice comes up, you go, yeah, there’s that voice. And we give a little bit more attention to the other voice. There’s a difference between trying to fight a voice and make it go away, we’re not doing that. You’re not going to make that voice go away by fighting it or trying to out willpower that doesn’t work. The way that voice goes away is you actually embrace it and you acknowledge it. You have compassion for it, because you know where it comes from. Now, you know that that’s the voice of that little child, who was trying to make sure his daddy loved him. So I gotta push my body. I got to punish it. I gotta toughen up. I gotta make it into an athletic man. In order to be loved. So that’s where that voice comes from. And that voice thinks your survival depends on you beating up your body. That’s what it thinks. So we have compassion for that voice. Oh, there’s that voice again. I understand where it came from. Big hug. And now I’m going to pay attention to the voice that wants some love and acceptance and kindness towards my body. My body’s tired of being punished. It is. There are ways you can be in your body and move your body that your body wants to do that will give you great pleasure. You probably already know some of those ways. But your brain might think well this this isn’t going to toughen me up enough. What is it that you like to do just because my body loves doing this. My body loves hiking, my body loves being in the ocean, my body loves being on a paddleboard surfing a wave. There are certain things your body loves doing. My body loves being touched. And when those experiences are happening, really sink into that. Notice how good your body feels when it’s being nourished in a way that it wants to be nourished.

Rory
That makes sense.

Marc David
Yes.

Rory
Cause I don’t do it. I just use yeah, I don’t have that connection, it’s quite confronting, actually, I get this it’s this disembodied from that part? You know.

Marc David
Yeah. So it’s learning. It’s just learning. You’re learning. I mean, think of it this way, how beautiful that you’re learning how to be in your body, in a certain way for the first time. At age 60 something, you’re learning how to be in your body in a very sweet way. And, you know, on a certain level, here you are, you said, you’re 62, you’re healthy, you’re fit. And so your body has befriended you, despite the fact that you’ve been pushing it and punishing it. It’s still been your friend. So you can look at trusting your body. See, a lot of this is about trusting your body. When you say Oh, I get maybe a little symptom, and my brain starts to go in a bad direction, and I cut myself off. You know, part of it is you just don’t want to be in that conversation. And that’s not a bad thing. There’s actually a part of you that trusts your body. If you’re climbing a mountain, you got to trust your body. If you’re doing any extreme sport, you got to trust your body, you can get hurt. So there’s other ways to trust one’s body other than just pushing it to the limit. I trust that even when I get a symptom, that I don’t want, that I’m going to be with it and pay attention to it and maybe get help and work it out. And do my best. I’m trusting my body because my body got me this far. Here you are. Yeah. And you now know, because you’ve witnessed the death of both your parents, you now know that you’re mortal. You know you’re gonna die at some point. When both our parents dies something in us clicks, like, Oh, this is definitely going to happen to me.

Rory
I’m next!

Marc David
So this is a beautiful time to create a new relationship with your body.

Rory
It is

Marc David
And just catch yourself when you use the terms. Well, this is insurmountable, just catch yourself. It’s not insurmountable. You’ve already surmounted things that might have seemed insurmountable to you. You got a miracle with your dad. You can have the same miracle with your body. I mean that. And it’s just a question now of doing a little things. Doing the little things. So when the old voice comes in, No, you’ve got to push your body you got to punish your body you got to hate on your body. Have compassion for that. Remember where it comes from. That’s the little boy in you looking for love in all the wrong places. Think of how you would treat your children if they had the same internal conversation that you did. If your children came to you and said Dad, this is what I’m telling them Myself. You will say, Hey, you don’t have to do that. So it’s being the father to your body that you never really had. Being the parent to your body that you never really had.

Rory
Yeah. Yeah. Never, never occurred to me. It’s ridiculous.

Marc David
Well, it doesn’t occur to us because when we’re in it, we’re in it. And I think you’re just in a great situation because you have your health and you have awareness, and you care. And you’ve seen miracles happen. And we’re going to reframe body dysmorphia. Only reason I want to reframe that and let that term go is because it kind of medicalizes it. And it makes us sound like there’s something wrong with me. And there’s actually nothing wrong with you. You were just making the smartest decisions based on how you were brought up, as a very young human. You were adapting in the best way that you knew how. I better have a perfect body so I can be loved, protected and safe. Oh, okay. Now that I’m an adult, I see that that pattern doesn’t work. And now I’m going to slowly start to change that. That’s what you’re doing

Rory
Yeah.

Marc David
So this is no longer a problem. This is a new part of your journey. Part of your story.

Rory
Yeah, just couldn’t let it go. Without putting it into a system and pathologizing it. I just need to let it go. It just feels like we just need to let it go. Be compassionate to myself. Yeah, that’ll be interesting,

Marc David
Yes. That’s what I got for you, Rory, that to me, I think hits the target this conversation. In terms of me, you know, just kind of laying out what I think is the roadmap for you.

Rory
It’s gonna be interesting, Marc. It’s gonna be interesting. And, you know as you say, miracles happen.

Marc David
Yes. Rory, great work.

Rory
Thank you, Marc.

Marc David
I really appreciate the conversation. I hope it was beneficial for you.

Rory
Without a doubt, and I look forward to writing that letter.

Marc David
All right. Rory thank you so much.

Rory
Thank you, Marc.

Marc David
And thanks everybody for tuning in my friends. Take care.