Harnessing the Power of Conscious Ritual to Overcome Binge Eating – In Session with Marc David

Marc David
Welcome, everybody, Marc David here, founder of the Institute for the Psychology of Eating. We’re in the Psychology of Eating Podcast. I am with Megan today. Welcome, Megan!

Megan
Thanks, Marc.

Marc David
I’m glad we’re here. Glad we’re doing this. For anybody who’s new to the podcast. How this works is Megan and I are meeting for the first time. And we’re going to have a conversation to see if we can make some good things happen.

So Megan, if you could wave your magic wand and have what ever you wanted with food and body, what would that be for you?

Megan
In this current season Marc, that would look like not eating at nighttime. So it’s the I’m putting in air quotes “emotional eating” after dinner. The mindless snacking. Although it’s not so mindless anymore, I’ve gone quite a way with my relationship with food, but it would just be clearing that up completely. I eat really well during the day it’s just that little bit at night. And it’s not even that I’m eating, and I don’t want to use the words “bad food’ but it’s not that I’m eating unhealthy food. I eat the healthy food, it’s the nuts and seeds and peanut butter and obviously that’s very calorie dense. I think that’s keeping me back from my health and fitness goals and keeping me from being a little bit more comfortable in my skin then I would like to be so that would be my ideal situation.

Marc David
Great. Let’s dive in. How long has night time eating been more of a challenge for you?

Megan
I would say 13 years ago, I competed in fitness competitions and that’s really what created this disordered pattern of eating. For nearly six months, my coach had me on 1200 calories a day, and I was doing three hours cardio a day, training with weights for an hour and a half a day. It was just intense! And then literally the day after my last competition. I ended up binge eating, and I had no clue what that was. And it was a really scary time, to be honest.

So this whole last 13 years has been rebuilding that relationship with food and myself and my body. Then the binge eating started slowing down and then it just got into I guess, less disordered patterns of eating to now I feel like I’m at the tip, I’m at the point where it’s just that last little bit of emotional eating at night. It’s almost like my identity doesn’t want to let it go because it’s been with me for so long. It’s like a best friend. And I don’t know who I am without it. And so that’s kind of where I’m at now. So the emotional eating I’d say, probably has still been with me for at least 13 years, it’s just the remnants of the binge eating disorder.

Marc David
Great. Okay, very helpful. So you’re finished with fitness competitions these days?

Megan
Oh, yes! I train for life, but not for fitness.

Marc David
So when the nighttime meeting happens, what time does it usually start?

Megan
Say 7:30/8 o’clock in the evening.

Marc David
And when might the last time you eat be?

Megan
About 10 o’clock.

Marc David
Okay, so from 7:30 or 8:00 till about 10:00 you’ll be munching and snacking?

Megan
Only a little bit. It’s not even like I’m just sitting there with bowls of food or anything. It’s like, I will get up and get a handful of nuts, and then I’ll eat them. And then my mind is still wandering, and then I’ll come back and get some more maybe you know, 20 or 30 minutes later. So it’s on and off. It’s not that I’m just sitting there mindlessly consuming. And I’ve got to the point where I know I’m doing it. So I’d say on and off between 8:00 and 10:00.

Marc David
And when you go to sleep do you feel full?

Megan
Not any more. When I was at the height of my binge eating, I was scared to go to bed on an empty stomach because of that restrictive lifestyle of competing, I was going to bed hungry and I hated it and I get up hungry and tired and miserable. So the binge eating when that kicked in, I I wouldn’t allow myself to go hungry. I just couldn’t do it. But now no. Like I try and sit at about 70% or 80% full satisfaction. But no, I don’t go to bed for any more. I used to get up in the middle of the night and start eating as well when I felt a bit hungry. I just wouldn’t let myself go into that space but I’m not anymore.

Marc David
Normally just throughout the day, would you consider yourself a fast eater, moderate eater, slow eater?

Megan
I have listened to this part of your podcast so many times. And it’s almost like I block it out. I don’t want to listen to what you’re saying but I know I’m a fast eater and it’s only in the last couple of weeks that I’ve actually really tried to be present with my food. Like, no distractions, sit outside in nature and really be present with my food. But yeah, 100% I’m a fast eater, and I’ve going a long way to go with that!

Marc David
Okay, now during the day, do you eat breakfast, lunch and dinner?

Megan
Again, I am. So I was living in Bali for three years prior to recent happenings and I got into fasting over there. I met someone who was Muslim, and he introduced me to Ramadan. And it was at a point where I actually really enjoyed the fasting period, because I was giving my body a break for the first time ever and I really started enjoying that. So I’ve been fasting, have had a fasting lifestyle for about five years and it wasn’t attached to the weight loss. I just felt better. I felt better not always consuming food. And it’s only the last three weeks that I decided, look, I’ve got to stop this and I am just going to try and listen to my body’s cues. So the answer that now yes, I eat breakfast, lunch and dinner and a couple of snacks if I’m feeling like I need to.

Marc David
Okay, so what time in these last three weeks does breakfast usually come?

Megan
About 7:30 or 8?

Marc David
Okay, what time is lunch? Roughly?

Megan
Around 12 o’clock.

Marc David
And how about dinner? What time is that?

Megan
Between 5:00 and 6:00.

Marc David
And of those three meals, what would you say tends to be the biggest of those three meals?

Megan
I would say dinner.

Marc David
Give me an example of a typical dinner…

Megan
So always three quarters of a plate of veggies with some type of protein. Chicken, fish, salmon, steak. Anything, really.

Marc David
Okay, and give me the possibilities for lunch.

Megan
Usually just a massive salad with nuts and seeds and avocado and probably with chicken or tuna. And yeah, I’d say that’s an average lunch.

Marc David
Okay. And when you go to sleep at night, are you tired?

Megan
Yes, because I get up early. But yeah, I’m tired.

Marc David
Do you live alone right now?

Megan
Yes.

Marc David
When you finish dinner, other than you finding yourself snacking for that couple of hour period here and there. What’s happening in your life from the time you finish dinner till the time you go to sleep other than snacking? What’s your rhythm? What’s your flow? What’s your rituals?

Megan
That’s really interesting. So I know that my disordered patterns of eating stemmed from a need for love and connection. My competing experience was actually quite traumatic. It’s a really long story but it was very traumatic. And I know there was a lot of judgment with my friends and family about how I looked. They hadn’t seen me for a long time and then when I was in competition mode, there was a lot of judgment, a lot of arguments, etc, which was very traumatic. So I know that I ended up starting to binge eat for that protective layer and to almost be like, well, the only way you’ll accept me is if I’m fat, again. And so I know that there’s been a massive lack of love and connection in my life and so I know it stemmed from there. And now it’s turned into boredom because I went into that whole path of self love and acceptance, and that’s fine. And I don’t feel a lack of love, but now it’s more boredom. And I find as we come into winter here in Australia, I struggle to get outside once works done and work is also quite taxing. So it’s more that switching off time and I know that that’s why I’m doing it. But my rhythm, to be honest Marc, it’s not a lot at night, and I’m very aware of that.

Marc David
Yes. Okay, so I’ve collected some good information here, where I feel like I can offer you some feedback, ideas, thoughts, opinions that hopefully will be useful for you. So I see a number of things happening here. And to me, just so you know, the nighttime eating, I don’t look at it that you’re doing something bad, I don’t look at it, that you’re doing something wrong. It’s not bad. It’s not wrong. You’re doing it because you have a good reason to do it. That’s how I look at it, you. We do things because we have a good reason. Even if those things hurt us. Even if we don’t like them, there’s a part of us that has a good reason for it. And those reasons can be rooted in our inner world, our psychology, sometimes those reasons are rooted in our biology.

So part of me asking you about your eating rhythm, like what time do you have breakfast, lunch, dinner? Give me typical examples. What happens is sometimes, not all the time, sometimes people who are eating a lot at night after dinner, haven’t actually eaten enough during the day. So they’ve been kind of dieting during the day or secretly dieting during the day or secretly limiting their calories during the day. And therefore when it comes evening time, even though you just had dinner, the brain and body are registering a nutritional deficit. And we’re driven to eat.

But that’s not happening for you, in my opinion, because what I hear is you’re you’re basically having three good meals a day. So once again, I’m interested, what are the good reasons, the brilliant reasons in your mind why you would be eating at night? Here’s what I come up with. A couple of things. Like, why would you be eating at night? And part of it is connection. Because food connects us food is intimate. Food feels good. Food is pleasurable. That’s kind of what we know. since infancy. Feel bad – get some food – feel better. And there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s so important to realize, people say, Oh, emotionally eating is so bad. And emotionally eating is only problematic when it becomes problematic for us. I’m doing this so much. I can control that I can stop it. I’m gaining weight, okay, then we need to look at it. But you and I are emotional beings. We bring our emotion to everything!

You bring your emotion to your relationships, to your work, to any pastime that you do. And we bring our emotions to eating. I love food. There’s certain foods I really like. There’s certain foods I really don’t like. There’s certain people I like to eat with. There’s certain restaurants I like to go to – emotional eating. You go out on a date, and have a dinner. That’s an emotional eating experience. You’re kind of checking each other out while you’re having dinner. So we eat with emotion, like if you think of it what’s the opposite of emotional eating? Would it be unemotional eating? That sounds so boring. So you’re an emotional being. You bring your emotions to the table. That’s a beautiful thing.

I eat emotionally during the day and probably every meal I like to be emotionally present like wow, this feels good. I love this food. This makes my body feel nourished and energetic. So and yeah, I’ll have a dessert at night and it makes me feel good. So I’m using my emotions in a way that works for me and I’m using eating and emotional eating in a way that works for me. So, to me, you have a habit. A habit being something that’s repetitive. It’s automatic. You just kind of do it. You don’t get to the evening time and say, Okay, I need to snack for this next two hour period. You just kind of do it. So it’s automatic, it’s repetitive, it’s unconscious, and I think it’s giving you connection. It’s giving you a sense of I’m doing something! At the same time you acknowledge there’s a certain boredom happening. Because evening time has a has a kind of magic to it if you think about it, daytime is over, the sun has gone down chances are, and you’re winding down your day, so you’re not working. What do you do? What do I do such that I put the cherry on top of my day? What do I do such that I can transition into the night world in the sleeping world? And we all have our own different things that we do. If you were living with somebody, if you have kids, you’d be putting your kids to sleep. If you had a partner you would be doing who knows what with your partner, you might be being intimate, you might be having a conversation, you might be playing some music you might be, whatever you do!

So part of it is you don’t have a ritual that works for you. In the evening time, that’s deliberate, that’s conscious that’s chosen. Like for me, my evening ritual, I have a nice sit down dinner. I do it slow. I pay attention. I chit chat with my partner, we have some good conversation and we might watch some videos, I like nature videos, I like animal videos, There’s certain people I follow on YouTube that work with animals and wild animals. I might watch a favorite TV series. And then I might just do some more deep conversation. And that’s just a ritual. But we know we’re going to do that. And also have a snack. A lot of nights because it feels good to have a nice little snack! Feels nice. So I think it would be a great idea for you to start to think about and it might not be obvious at first. What would be good for me Megan, as an evening ritual or evening rituals, things I can do that feel good to me. What music could you play that feels good to you? What videos can you watch that feel good to you? What entertainment nourishes you. Like not something that’s violent and stresses you out. But something that makes you smile or makes you relax or is more gentle on the mind and the soul? Is there any kind of movement that you can do? Is there any kind of stretching you could do? Is it a bathing ritual? Are you doing anything ritual just cosmetically at night? That just makes you feel like I’m doing beauty care?

So, without conscious ritual, I’m going to go to unconscious ritual. What’s my unconscious ritual? Yeah, for a lot of people it’s food, let me just eat. Because we all know that food gives me something to do. And it’s easy just open up the refrigerator, you open up the cabinet and you get food. It’s there, it’s easy. And it’s a ritual. It’s something you do that you repeat every evening. Humans like ritual, we like to do something that is repetitive. Lunch, breakfast, dinner, those are rituals. Going to work at a certain time that’s a ritual. Calling your best friend, your parents, whoever a ritual. So all I’m saying is you have to start to invent meaningful ritual for you in the evening time that includes things other than food.

So hold that thought for a moment. Next, as you know, let me talk about the slow eating piece. Slow eating to me is not a speed even though it is a speed but it has nothing to do with speed at the end of the day. It’s all about awareness and consciousness. It’s all about presence. So in other words, if you’re going to do something, be there when you do it. If you’re going to be in conversation with your best friend, don’t be texting somebody else. That’s not fun for them, and you’re not going to really take in the person who’s talking to you if you’re doing something else. So if I’m not present with my food. Eating fast is a way to not be present with food.

Most people eat fast because it’s a learned habit. Let me take that back. Many people eat fast cause it’s a learned habit. You learn it from your environment. A lot of people are fast eaters, your parents maybe, siblings, people around you. You just learn from your environment oh, everybody eats fast. And/or we eat fast because food is kind of a crime. Food makes me fat. Food is the enemy. Or food used to be the enemy. So if I’m going to do something that’s a crime, eating, that can make me fat. If you’re going to be a criminal, you want to do the crime fast. You don’t want to rob a bank really slow. You want to get over quickly, so you don’t get caught. So a lot of times we eat fast as a way to pretend that we’re not eating. As a way to not embrace, I am an eater. I need to eat. I love eating. Eating is good. What’s the proof of that? Eating feels good. It tastes good. It’s pleasurable.

So because of your history, food, in a weird way, was the enemy. You can only eat 1200 calories a day. A little box, there’s the food. You can’t go outside that box. If you go outside the box, bad girl. Criminal. Everything you eat that’s outside that box, makes you a criminal. Makes you a bad person. So even that 1200 calories itself becomes a crime. You can’t enjoy it. You literally can’t enjoy it. You can’t relax into it. In part, because it’s not enough. So food in our natural state, we eat, we’re present to the food, we enjoy the food, we love the food. We notice the food, you get what you want from the food, which is pleasure. nourishment, satisfaction. Ah, that was good. Finished. So that’s a natural experience of eating. But if my head says food is bad food is the enemy, I gotta get this done quickly, then your body and brain actually don’t get what they need to what they require, which is pleasure, satisfaction.

So there’s the head phase of digestion. Cephallic phase digestive response means that we require taste, pleasure, aroma, satisfaction in order to regulate our appetite. Because if I eat a meal really fast, the brain doesn’t register taste. It doesn’t register satisfaction. And it takes head brain in your gut brain, the brain in your belly, the enteric nervous system. They both have to talk to each other and say hey, is there enough nutrients in my system? Are there enough macronutrients, micronutrients, vitamins, minerals? Did I get enough water? Did I get enough fiber and after a certain amount of time, yeah okay, we’re good! And natural appetite kicks in like oh, finished!

So when you were doing fitness competitions, and maybe even before that, you’re you were teaching yourself how not to be an eater. You are teaching yourself essentially how not to eat. Don’t eat enough food. Don’t enjoy food. I just see it as the enemy. Limit it as best you can. No animal in nature does that. You eat what you require. Once you get what you require animals are good. They don’t just keep eating and eating and eating. Once they get what they need, they’re done. So what I’m saying is during the day, you need to teach yourself to become an eater. Be present with the food, enjoy it. So sounds like you know what to eat. In terms of the foods that you’re choosing, now you just need to learn how to be. Which is as a relaxed human who’s welcoming in the food and being present to it. Now the reason why that’s hard is because there’s this part of ourselves that just habitually eats fast. It’s hard to change a habit, sometimes. But it’s even harder to change the habit of eating fast because you’re asking yourself to be in a nourishing and peaceful relationship with food and receive pleasure and enjoy it, which is the last 13 years we’re not telling you that. The last 13 years we’re telling you don’t enjoy food. You can’t enjoy it. You have to limit it. You have to limit yourself and this is going to be painful and it was painful.

So because you don’t get enough satisfaction during the day when nighttime comes, you’re at a satisfaction with food deficit, even though you had enough food. The brain is saying I didn’t get such a great experience. Again, it’s like being with a friend who doesn’t pay attention to you, you’re gonna walk away feeling like you didn’t get to hang out with your friend. So your brain is driving you a little bit to eat. Because of the fast eating during the day. The brain is also driving you to eat at night because you have no other ritual that you’re doing and in the face of boredom, we’ll fill it with the easiest thing we know. I’m bored, I watch TV, some people, that’s what they do. I’m bored, I’ll surf the internet. I’m bored, I eat food.

So the prescription is start practicing, not being a slow eater. But being present, nourished, pleasured, just intimate with your food. And just get all the great flavors, and get all the satisfaction. Let your tongue be happy, let your mouth be happy. And really register that. Create other evening rituals for yourself that feel good. And I would even suggest that you agree with yourself. I am going to eat after dinner. So in addition to the other two things I just said, agree with yourself that you know for the next month, let’s say I’m going to eat after dinner. Hmm, what would I like to eat after dinner? What would feel good to me. Now what feels good to me means a combination of what would taste good? What would feel nourishing? What would feel satisfying, and what would also satisfy my mind a bit? Now it just might be that certain foods, I don’t know, maybe nuts and seeds might satisfy your taste buds and might satisfy everything else but it’s not going to satisfy your mind because your minds says woah that’s too heavy. That’s too much calories. So what else could you eat, that’s satisfying that you agree I’m going to eat this and when you eat it at night, pay attention and be present. So make your night time eating conscious and aware. The reason why you spread it out over a two hour period is because that’s a ritual. That’s your evening ritual. That’s what’s taking you from the day to the night. And you’re not really present to it because I’m not supposed to be eating. This is emotionally eating, food is bad for me. I shouldn’t be doing this. Therefore even though I am going to do it, I’m not going to pay attention while I’m doing it. Because if I’m not paying attention, that kind of means I’m not doing it even though I am doing it. You follow me?

Megan
I do!

Marc David
So not paying attention means I’m kind of not doing it, I’m doing it on the sly. So own the experience. Agree that you’re going to eat in the evening time, but be present and see if you can make it once or twice Hmm Okay, first I’m gonna have this. First I’m going to have this pudding, or these cookies, or this frozen dessert, whatever it is, but I’m going to be present. I’m going to enjoy it. And I’m going to be there when I’m eating. So this way you’re getting what you want which is connection with the food, which is pleasure and you won’t have to keep doing it over two hours.

Megan
I think that point Marc is is huge to be honest. The not criminalizing the food at night like after dinner. Like that is huge. So I can already feel that that’s going to make a huge difference. And lately it’s again just I’ve made some massive changes in the last few weeks because I’m done with this. I don’t want to live like this anymore and I know I’ve come a long way but I hope this does wave that magic wand we were talking about at the start. But the last few weeks I have been playing around with okay, I finally was at the supermarket and went. Well, you know you’re going to eat after dinner. What does your soul really want? Like really want without the without the rules? And I ended up choosing an ice cream, and obviously the first few nights like I’m, I know that I stopped snacking once I’ve had that I am satisfied. Because the nuts are not doing it like, and I know they’re not going to do it. And I still do it because it’s the healthier option than the ice cream. That’s what’s going on in my head but I end up eating more, because I’m not satisfied. And so I’ve been allowing myself to have the ice cream, but I’m still noticing there’s those remnants of the food rules, because I’m still a little bit internally saying, Oh, this is bad. You shouldn’t be eating this. Yes.

Marc David
So you got it. You’re decriminalizing and it’s literally not a problem. All you’re doing is eating some fun food at night! Because you know, something, it feels good. Nobody ever died from eating ice cream at night. You know, nobody ever got put in jail for eating ice cream at night. And I don’t know that it’s bad for your health. Like, literally, I don’t know that it’s bad for your health. If anything, if you get the pleasure you want, pleasure relaxes us.

Megan
Yes.

Marc David
What you’re trying to do at night, what we’re setting ourselves up to do, again, the nighttime is your runway into sleep. So everything that we do in the evening time technically, should be moving us in the direction of relaxation, pleasure, inwardness. And just nourishing and feeding your soul. Now food can be nourishing and feed the soul. And it can be pleasureable, and it can be relaxing, music can be that, certain kinds of entertainment can be that, certain kinds of reading can be that, certain kinds of conversations can be that. But it’s all in the interest, I’m giving to myself. I’m nourishing myself. I’m being present with myself and I’m winding down my day in a good way.

Megan
Yeah, I have definitely noticed the difference between if I choose the healthy option after dinner, my nervous system still feels on fire, like it still feels quite stressed. But as soon as I do relax into the ice cream, and I’m very present with it. I’m not eating distracted, I’m really there with it. I just feel, because essentially, food is soothing as well and I feel like my whole body just relaxes, and it almost like takes a breath and it’s like, we are safe. It’s okay. But I’ve been criminalizing that, because I’m like, Well, now you’re using food to relax and soothe. That’s bad. Like that’s some of the self talk that’s going on.

Marc David
Yes. And the truth is using food to soothe and relax is good. It’s good when we are present to it. It’s good when we’re doing it in a way that works for us. If I unconsciously use food to self sooth and relax and just like shoveling it down, and eventually your body is going to relax. If you shovel down enough food, you will relax. Because your body needs to digest all the food that you just ate and in order to digest it, you need to be in a relaxation response because that’s where digestion happens at its peak in the relaxation response. Which is why a lot of people, they feel stressed, they binge eat a lot of food. And then they relax. Because once you hit enough food for each person that that amount is different. But they hit enough food in the system, the body automatically relaxes, but they’re eating unconsciously. So food is a completely legitimate strategy if it works for you, and it does work for you like oh, that ice cream just brings me down. So basically what it’s doing is it’s giving you a peak pleasure experience that really works for you. Great! Use it and if you’re present to it and aware, then you’re not going to overeat it to the degree where you’re guilty, you’re going to just have enough because you’re there, you’re enjoying it, but if I’m eating ice cream going oh my god, I really shouldn’t eat this, is bad for me. It’s no good. I can’t be present to the pleasure.

Under stress the body blunts pleasure receptors. So cortisol, the main stress hormone blunts the body to pleasure, it blunts cellular receptors to pleasure, such that if you’re under stress, in order to receive pleasure, you need to eat more food. Or you need to get more of a massage, to feel pleasure as if you were relaxed. So right now, if you’re in the most relaxed person in the world, and I give you some ice cream, you’re gonna feel really good. But if you’re super stressed out, and I give you some ice cream, you’re gonna really have to have more and more and more of it like, Okay, now I got it. Because, again, the optimum state to receive pleasure is the relaxation response. At the same time, what’s interesting is anything that gives you pleasure moves you into moves you into the relaxation response.

So if you say to me, ice cream is really pleasurable to me an my whole body relaxes like, yeah, so it is moving you into a relaxation response. And you can help that process by doing your best to let go of optional stress in the moment. Optional stress means Oh, my God, I shouldn’t eat this, this is bad for me. Oh, my God, this is fattening. Oh my god, I’m a criminal. That’s optional. Stress. Not a criminal, you’re a person. You had a long day, you’re worked a bunch, and you want some pleasure. It’s real simple. You want pleasure. You’re like every other creature on earth that is designed to seek pleasure and avoid pain. That is how every single celled organism, every lizard, every mammal, every human is programmed to seek pleasure and avoid pain. So a lot of times, our pleasure doesn’t come until the end of the day. Unless your job is pleasurable, or you’ve had pleasurable moments during the day, then pleasure doesn’t happen until evening time when it’s like, okay, this is my time now, what gives me pleasure? That’s why I was talking about you having an evening ritual that has things other than food, or additional to food, that give you pleasure.

Megan
You made a really great point there with if we go back to the ice cream as well. As I said, I’ve only been doing this for a couple of weeks. I’ve only just started allowing myself to explore the food I really want to. And there have been a couple of nights where I’ll go for a second ice cream. And I know my behavior sometimes can be all or nothing. And I’ve been so scared to let some of these foods back in. Because I know, and I’ve got to be careful with my self talk here but I ended up eating more than I want to. And then I go through that cycle of beating myself up again and saying, See, you can’t do it. You can’t just have some ice cream in the house and enjoy one. But what I’ve just taken from what you said is, I know those times where I’ll choose a second ice cream, and I know I’m doing this because I’ve really tried to build a lot of self awareness around my journey with food and connection to self. But I don’t quite know how to stop it. But I think you’ve shed a light on it. I know in those moments when I choose a second one, it’s because I’m not as present. And I’m still stressed. So I have some neighbors who make a lot of noise at night or pretty much the whole day. And I know I’m coping with that, instead of speaking up to them, I’m actually using the food as well. But it could be anything. Could be an extra stressful day. So I’ll have an extra ice cream.

So that’s massive Marc actually to hear that because I honestly thought it was just me, I can’t stop at one I was starting to worry. And then I cut out the ice cream for a few days but my brain keeps thinking about how much pleasure it was giving me after you know, after dinner and I was satisfied with that one ice cream. And then yeah, but I have had a couple of nights where I’ll go for the second one and then I’ll start beating myself up.

Marc David
You know, something you reminded me of, Megan is that pleasure is a great teacher for us. And pleasure is something we literally learn about from the time we’re born, potentially until the time we die. Pleasure is always teaching us. What makes you feel pleasure? Like there’s certain things as a kid that were pleasurable to you. There are certain things as a teenager that were pleasurable to you. There’s certain things at different times in your life. Oh my god, this is pleasurable. When you become a sexual being, oh my god, this is pleasurable. When you branch out and eat other kinds of foods, oh my god, this food is pleasurable. I never knew that. Or you get exposed to different kinds of music, oh, my god that’s pleasurable. And what happens to human beings is that we get mixed messages around pleasure.

We are taught to fear pleasure. We are taught to demonize pleasure. And at the same time, we are taught to be pleasure junkies. So you’re getting all kinds of advertising hurled at you to eat all kinds of bad foods, and forbidden foods and sugary foods and sweet foods and chocolate foods and ice cream. You’re being advertised that and then you’re being advertised by the weight loss programs like don’t eat this and don’t eat that and sugar’s bad. And the result is the mind goes crazy, because we’re getting all this paradoxical information. And what we need to do is stop all of the incoming stimulus that you get from the media, or that you heard, and that you learned, and you begin to learn about pleasure on pleasures own terms as it relates to you.

So you are your own unique pleasure being. What gives you pleasure is different from what gives your friend pleasure or somebody else pleasure or anybody else pleasure. And yeah, we have certain commonalities that yeah, most people get pleasure from food. Most people might get pleasure from touch, some don’t. But we have commonalities, but then we have very specifics. But you have to learn for you, your relationship with pleasure. And part of it is learning to trust yourself. And it’s not just pleasure with food. Because how you relate to pleasure with food is oftentimes how you’re going to relate to pleasure and other experiences in life. So it’s learning to explore your pleasure self. And trust her and give her the opportunity. You know, you might make a mistake, you might decide, you know, I’m going to have ice cream three times tonight. And you know, something, that’s okay, it’s not going to kill you. You might have a stomach ache, you might feel guilty, or you might go, Oh, God, that was too much. But you know, something? You’ll recover, you’re not going to die. So really, trusting pleasure means just trusting yourself, that you will stand by yourself, no matter what you got yourself into. I’m not going to abandon myself, I’m not going to judge myself, I’m not going to criticize myself, because I ate too much. Or that was so good that I did that. Or that I went out and did this pleasurable experience, and I drank too much, or I overdid it, or whatever you did too much. You’ll recover. And you’ll learn from it. And you’ll start to find what’s my sweet spot with food? Like, what’s the amount that really works for me, such as my body feels good, my body relaxes. And I feel good about me, because I ate this amount that worked for me, but I didn’t eat that amount. That was too much. So it’s an exploration, it’s a learning experience, as opposed to this is right or wrong. It’s like, No, you’re finding out what works for you.

The ability to receive pleasure think of it as a superpower. People I don’t know, think of anybody that you know, think of a woman that you might know, who is more unabashed and more confident about receiving pleasure, from food, sex, from clothes, from life, from dancing, people who are confident in their pleasure are empowered. They’re happier, they’re fun. And they’re very self satisfied. And they glow a little bit.

Megan
And I have been her and so I get what I’m receiving from you is so loud and clear. Because I’ve definitely had moments in my life, a lot of moments like that, even when I was living in Bali, my life was so full, and so joyful, and everyone that was following me and my journey of moving to Bali. They’d comment constantly, like Bali looks good on you. And it was just because I was fully receiving, I was receiving everything and the weight dropped off.

I didn’t even try and diet. And I was eating some chocolate every day and I just went with whatever and I didn’t even think about it. But it was because I was relaxed and I was in the state of receiving. So another massive insight Marc around the relationship to pleasure, I think is huge. Because I know a lot of my practices like I dance, I do salsa dancing but that’s dropped off lately. There’s a lot of things that have dropped off. So yeah, I’m actually looking forward to exploring that pleasure again, because I know that’s the key.

Marc David
Yes, even though you’re not living in Bali, you know that core experience of being in that flow of receiving pleasure in so many different ways. And how it brings you to your natural self, and it brought you your natural weight. So you can you can adopt many of those practices into your Australian life and just notice what happens. This is about you being your best self. You know, this is about you being your most empowered self, your most empowered person, your most empowered woman.

And an empowered woman is willing to be in contact and in dialogue, in relationship with her pleasure. And is willing to receive pleasure, and to do her best and when it’s hard, then you practice. So yeah, I’m gonna make evening time eating legal, not only am I gonna make it legal, I’m gonna make it fun. And I’m going to just explore and throw out the rules and just see, okay, what actually works for me? And how do I dial this in? So this feels good? No rules. And when I say no rules, it doesn’t mean oh, just do whatever you want, and keep eating, you know, for five hours. It’s like, no, it’s you’re, you’re being present with yourself. Real pleasure, has wisdom in it. Meaning, you know, you might like sex, but it doesn’t mean you’re gonna go have sex with anybody that just shows up on the street. No, you’re gonna choose? Who am I going to be with? Who am I going to engage with? So there’s wisdom. Yeah, there are certain foods that give you pleasure. And then there’s the wisdom part of you that pops in. Okay, well, how much of this? And oh, yeah, that food gives me pleasure but you know, I’m allergic to that and it gives me all these symptoms afterwards. So, you know something? Even though it gives me pleasure, I’m going to stay away from that, because the cost far outweighs the benefit. There are certain foods that really give me pleasure, that that just make me feel like garbage. So I’m just not going to eat it. So that’s a that’s the wisdom of pleasure speaking. But you only find the wisdom in pleasure when you’re willing to explore and experiment and throw out the rules.

What a good conversation, don’t you think?

Megan
Amazing Marc! You’ve dropped so many golden nuggets. I’m gonna have to re listen to this but thank you so much. I’m actually excited about exploring that relationship to pleasure. But like you’ve bought, honestly, 13 years of struggle full circle that’s how this conversation feels for me. And I almost feel like done, I can tie the ribbon on it. I know, practicing the relationship to food and eating and pleasure and all of that. It’s an ongoing practice, and it will keep evolving but I feel like I don’t need to keep looking for any answers anymore.

This is the most beautiful conversation around food that I think I’ve ever had! Thanks.

Marc David
Thank you. I’m happy for me and happy for you. Happy for both of us. Great work, Megan. And thanks, everybody for tuning in. Take care.