Marc David
Welcome, everybody. I’m Marc David, founder of The Institute for the Psychology of Eating. We’re in the Psychology of Eating Podcast. I’m with Beverley today. Welcome, Beverley. Glad you’re here, I’m glad we’re doing this! And, for people listening in who are new to the podcast, Beverley and I are meeting for the first time. And this is a client session, and we’re going to see if we can make some good things happen.

So, Beverley, if you could wave your magic wand, and get whatever you want it with food and body, what would that be for you?

Beverley
It would be, when I’m in my darkest moments that I don’t use food as a, as a way to put off what I must face. And that I am able to go directly to those hard places. Because I put them off by stuffing and then I feel terrible. And then I make that the problem, rather than the real thing that I eventually do get to.

Marc David
Wow. So you already have a lot of insight! You know what you’re doing.

Beverley
I do. I’ve been working very hard on this most of my adult life, and I just turned 70. So a good 50 years and the last 20 years I’ve really been getting deep in there. But there’s still one little tiny, dark thing that I’m not quite sure what that is.

Marc David
Well, good for you for being at the young age of 70. And still working on yourself and still doing your best to be your best self. That’s just so admirable. I just have a lot of respect for that.

Beverley
Thanks..

Marc David
It’s a good role model for all of us. So, it’s been a long time. You know, it sounds like it’s been a lifetime, really, that you’ve been kind of dealing with turning to food to help with your emotions. And what does that look like these days for you when you’re turning to food? Because there’s experiences or situations that it’s hard to handle? Like, how does it look for you? Give me the details.

Beverley
You mean like what do I do?

Marc David
Yeah, like what circumstance might cause you to reach for food?

Beverley
I’m usually it’s my brain. I have a wonderful life. I’ve always had an amazing life and I seem to create. I’m very judgmental of myself more than others. So I’m learning to accept that. So in the past, when it was really a lot, I used to be bullimic. I’d just throw up so I could fit more in, I didn’t throw up to get skinny. It was because of the self shame and all of that stuff. And that still ignites when I shoulda woulda, shoulda, coulda remember, if only I blah, blah, blah. You know, I’m going over my day and don’t like what I did. Basically…

Marc David
Are there any particular things that would cause you to reach for food? Or could it just be anything really.

Beverley
In those times I guess it’s more that I don’t like the end of the day coming. And if I find myself getting sleepy, I’ll wake up and go eat that that’ll be my way to stay awake until I’m just sort of in this full, ugly place where I just sleep out of exhaustion. Then I’m full of shame for doing that.

Marc David
And is that a common experience for you? The end of the day is coming. You’re not ready for the end of the day, start eating food, makes you stay up a little while. Eventually, you fall asleep but you feel all kinds of shame about that. So how many times a week would you say that you do that?

Beverley
At the moment, not at all, not since two or three weeks, basically, which was when I first applied to be part of this whole thing. So when I get a handle on doing something about it, it’s okay. But it would be every night if I’m in an unhappy place.

Marc David
Are you in a relationship?

Beverley
Yes, I’ve just recently pulled back from it a little bit to focus on myself more. And we’re both fine with that.

Marc David
Great. Do you have kids?

Beverley
I have three children. They’re all adults.

Marc David
Do you have grandkids?

Beverley
Not yet, though. One of them’s just announced, she’s gonna have a baby in October. So my first thought was, I’d better get it together.

Marc David
So it sounds like one of the difficult aspects of turning to food for you when you’re not feeling good about something or not feeling good about yourself. Like one of the difficulties about that is the shame that comes afterwards.

Beverley
Absolutely. And I hide, I don’t I don’t want to see anybody. If anyone shows up at my door, I’m mortified that they see me that way.

Marc David
Can you remember a time when you first noticed in your life, that you felt shame?

Beverley
Pretty well, always.

Marc David
So when you were young, what did you feel shame about?

Beverley
Not knowing things. I mean, I had a lovely childhood and my family was fantastic. But somehow my brain would. I didn’t want people to see me so I got very good at being invisible. And sometimes I’d stopped breathing, just to be even more invisible. And I still do that, though. I’m, now I’m aware of it. And I make myself breathe. So what would it be? I remember feeling stupid, because I didn’t know how to play the piano. But I never asked for lessons. I didn’t know I had a voice.

Marc David
Let me ask you the opposite question. When do you feel best about yourself?

Beverley
Well, I’m very good at doing what I do, like my work.

Marc David
What’s your work?

Beverley
I’m a theatre technician and lighting designer and I also teach at the local high school. And I love doing that. I love giving the kids, helping them find their power, onstage and backstage.

Marc David
Good for you.. So Beverley, when you imagine, this is all behind me. I don’t feel the shame anymore. I’m not turning to food in this intense way. When you imagine that that’s all behind you. How do you imagine life is going to be different? How will you be different? What is it going to look like for you?

Beverley
Well, it sort of already is! I’m loving every day and bouncing out of bed early and I’m inspired all day. And I’m clear. I have clarity. I know exactly what to do about things that I didn’t know before. Like, I’m not really a gardener. I always get it wrong. I grew up in the city. But now I know exactly. I’m out there digging and I know what I’m doing. So there’s clarity involved. The underlying thing is that I’m always surprised when it hits again, and I don’t know. When I’m in it, I can’t seem to pull myself out of it. I have to wait. So there’s that underlying kind of oh, this is great. But when is it going to come again?

Marc David
Okay, so is this sort of a rhythm for you? Or a pattern meaning Oh, God, I’ll go for some number of weeks and I’ll be fine. And then all of a sudden, sort of the emotional eating shows up again. And I just like how did this happen? Where does this come from?

Beverley
Yeah, It is a pattern, and it used to last for sometimes nine months, or a year. Now my theater work would be my saving grace. I didn’t go completely mad. Because I had that every night or when I had a gig. So everything would be wonderful. And then that would be over and back to my life again, into the hellhole I’d go. And that’s less and less and less and less, and got it down to maybe a day or two. And then this last winter, like since about September till I’m not kidding two or three weeks ago. And everything I had to do. Was such an effort, such an effort to do.

Marc David
Yes.

Beverley
So I’m feeling like, it’s gone now, because I’ve done so much work through it. But ya never know….

Marc David
So, let me share some thoughts.

Beverley
Please do!

Marc David
You know, the challenge you’re describing is a challenge that so many human beings face in so many different ways, meaning we hit a rough spot. And in that rough spot, we might turn to food, we might turn to alcohol, we might turn to drugs, we might get depressed, we might get super anxious, and we start to do habits that don’t really work for us, and that don’t support us. And then we don’t feel good about ourselves for the bad things that we’re doing that impact our health or impact our mind. And we go there we as human beings will go there. I think for a lot of people, that’s part of our learning journey. So one way to frame this is this is just your learning journey. And the growth edge is how do I not stay in that place for longer than I need to.

So the idea is to shrink the amount of time not to stop the incidence of it happening. But to shrink the amount of time that we stay in it. That I’m going to suggest to you as a goal. As something to shoot for. So it’s not about oh my God, I hope this doesn’t return again. Let’s assume for a minute, because it’s common, it’s gone for you for a lifetime. So let’s assume is going to come back at some point. Because you know, things happen in waves, the big waves come and then big waves kind of stop. And then sometimes we’re on a hot streak and sometimes on a cold streak. And sometimes things are really good in life. And other times they’re challenging. And so there’s going to be those rhythms of up and down, happy and sad. ease or difficulty. So let’s assume it’s going to happen. And instead of bracing against it or fighting against it, okay, here it is.

How do I shrink the amount of time that I stay there? So the idea is, if we’re there for nine months, how do we shrink it to three months? And then if we’re there for three months, at a time, how do we shrink it to three weeks? And if we’re there for three weeks, how do we shrink it to three days? That I’m suggesting as a way to frame it. So we’re not looking at turning to food as the problem. Turning to food is your solution.

Beverley
That’s right!

Marc David
It’s the solution. The problem is I’m having a life experience that I’m not sure how to manage well. I’m not sure how to manage as well. And I turn to food and then I feel guilty. So there’s a couple of practices. So practice number one is again, to just know. Okay, life moves in cycles, I move in cycles, life moves in rhythms, I move in rhythms, this will come back. And I want to commit to the practice as best I can of shrinking the amount of time that I stay in the bad place.

Beverley
Yeah. That brings me to there is a refusal that I have in me and I think I’ve got a switch that refusal – like refusing to do what the right thing is. So but if I bet if I switch it to refusing to allow that to overtake me, like refusing for my own benefit, rather than for my own detriment.

Marc David
Ah, brilliant. I love that. So what that does is it acknowledges that you have a lot of refusal energy in you.

Beverley
I do! I’m a little fighter.

Marc David
I mean, you’re feisty. Okay, great! So you’re a feisty person. And I’m going to bet that being feisty is one of your great attributes. It’s one of your gifts, it’s one of your strong points. It’s an aspect of you that’s helped you, be you and helped you have a decent life. And being feisty, sometimes can be a detriment. Meaning we’re being feisty in a way that we’re fighting ourselves. And we’re fighting our own best interest. Because we’re just trying to be feisty now who does that? People who use their feistiness to fight against themselves, it’s usually the kid in us. It’s the teenager in me that just, I want to rebel for the sake of rebelling, I’m not gonna take care of myself. I don’t want to do this. So it’s the part of us that’s a little bit younger. So I’m gonna guess for you that when you get into that, you know, I’m not going to help myself stage, I’m not gonna do anything about this, I refuse. That’s a young part of you.

Beverley
I identify with my seven year old, more than anything these days, and that’s when it really started too.

Marc David
Now, that aspect of being a seven year old, that is actually an introduction of power. It’s an introduction of ego in a good way, it’s an introduction of self assuredness, because I, as a young child, I’ve got the ability to say, No, I’m not gonna do that. Or no, I’m going to push back. Because that’s essential to finding our voice. That’s essential to finding ourselves. So what I’m doing is I’m just looking for the positive in this. So we can really underline and you’ve already said this, like, Yeah, you’re a feisty person, and it works for you, except when it doesn’t.

So you are an adult now, you’re no longer a seven year old. So when that seven year old is getting all feisty, and says, I don’t want to help myself, I don’t want to do this. I’m just going to keep stuffing my face with food. That’s where adult 70 year old queen Beverley needs to step in. And say, okay, you know, the woman is in charge here, the queen is in charge. The elder in me is now in charge. And feistiness is welcome. And it’s good. And it’s helpful. But it’s not helpful in this moment. It’s not helpful in this instance. So it’s having a dialogue with that part of yourself.

Beverley
Yeah. And that brings up fear. As soon as you said that, I can feel that emotion. Welling. There’s a fear there of it’s to do with deep love, or something. You know, because what you’re referring to is love of self.

Marc David
Yes. So is your mother still alive?

Beverley
No, she’s passed a long time ago.

Marc David
How was the relationship?

Beverley
Oh, it was fabulous. And it still is we giggle all the time.

Marc David
My question is, and I’m just exploring, I’m not so sure here. What do you imagine your mother would say to you if she was alive? And if she was advising you right now. And if she was just in her total wisdom self, and she was saying to her beautiful daughter, Beverley, you know, here’s what I see happening for you. Here’s what I see going on. What do you think she’d say to you?

Beverley
She would encourage. She would always encourage and trust and know that it would sort it out. And I believe she still is doing that. But it’s like I’m a little bird that doesn’t want to leave the nest or something….

Marc David
Yes.

Beverley
I mean, I have! In my own feisty way..

Marc David
Right! So part of what I’m picking up on here is that there’s a place where you don’t want to abandon your mother, there’s a place where you don’t want to surpass your mother. And as long as you continue to be her young daughter with challenges and issues, then you’re still close. If I’m still that little girl than mommy, then I know my mommy loves me.

Beverley
You’ve hit on something maybe. Maybe you’ve hit on something there.

Marc David
There is a place where you have to know that if you become your own woman, you become empowered. You become self assured you love yourself, you take care of yourself. You’re a good mother to yourself. You love yourself. That doesn’t disconnect you from your mother. That doesn’t mean you don’t love your mother or she doesn’t love you. You don’t lose her love.

Beverley
That’s right. Yes, because I still look to her as a teacher. Yes.

Marc David
So this is about you, in a strange way, graduating in a whole new way from your mother’s house. So you’re still your mother’s daughter. But you’re not her baby anymore. You’re not her child. You’re a woman. And you’re a mother and you’re about to be a grandmother. And of course, you’ll always be her baby. On some level, you’re always a baby, you’re always her child. But it’s okay for you to grow into your fullness and grow into self love. It’s okay for you to do that. That’s what she wants for you.

Beverley
Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s a really good point.

Marc David
So there’s a place that when you stay that feisty child, there’s a part of you that feels comfortable there because you know, you’re loved. You know you’re loved, you know that somebody is going to be there to protect you, or still love you no matter what. So now you’re stepping in and doing that role for yourself, you’re going to love you no matter what, because that’s what happens when you go into long periods of self denial, and not giving yourself what you need. And checking out from your wisdom and checking out from the woman in you. What’s happening is you’re going a little dark. You’re turning off the lights.

Beverley
Yep!

Marc David
And this is just you learning how to love yourself in those times. And loving yourself means first and foremost forgiving yourself. So yeah, there’s gonna be moments when you turn to food. We all do it, I do it. We turn to food to feel better. Food makes us feel good. Doesn’t matter. You can favorite meal and you feel even better. So yeah, food makes us feel good. It makes cats, dogs, every animal, every creature, every human, it makes us feel good. So there’s nothing wrong with that. And it becomes problematic when we reach for food, because it’s covering up something else. And we’re just trying to use it to deal with uncomfortable experiences uncomfortable emotions that are coming up. So when you notice yourself doing that, the default place is to go to shame.

Beverley
Right!

Marc David
That’s the default place. I’m so ashamed that I did that. So the woman in you, the queen in you, the mother in you, the adult in you says it’s okay, honey, you’re human. You’re forgiven. I’m going to stand by you. Beverley says, Queen Beverley says to young Beverley, I’m going to stand by you. I’m not abandoning you.

So that’s the lesson that you’re learning is how to stand by yourself because your mother’s not directly here to do that for you.

Beverley
That’s right…

Marc David
So it’s now time for you to do that for you. And that will connect you more to your mother, it won’t disconnect you from her.

Beverley
Yes. Just writing down what you said…

Marc David
Good, good! I’m glad you’re doing that. I’m very glad you’re doing that.

So it’s forgiving yourself for being human. When you turn to food. It’s being a good mother to yourself.

Beverley
That’s right….

Marc David
And it’s choosing the light in that moment, because a part of us is going into the darkness. And it’s choosing, I’m going to stay in the light, I’m going to stay in awareness, I’m going to stay in consciousness, I’m going to stay in a place of self love, as best I can. And that’s a practice

Beverley
As best I can. That’s right…

Marc David
As best you can…

Beverley
I’m so hard on myself, if I can’t do it perfectly…

Marc David
So that’s good to know about yourself. It’s good to know that you can be a perfectionist. That you have that perfectionist voice in you. And it’s your job to manage the voices in your head. Yeah, because they’re your people. They’re your committee. So the perfectionist jumps in and says, Yeah, you’re supposed to manage your emotions, but you’re not doing it good enough. You need to do it perfect you need to forgive yourself perfectly right now. And like, No, you need to be a human being and you’re imperfect. And here’s how it looks. And that’s okay.

Beverley
That’s right. I like that.

Marc David
So you’re not fighting the perfectionist, what you’re doing is you’re introducing other voices that are more useful and more important. The voice of the queen in you who says no, I’m not going to let the perfectionist sit on the throne and control everything. Perfectionist is going to sit over here, and she can complain all she likes, but I’m not gonna let her sit on the throne.

Beverley
Right!

Marc David
And run the day and run my life! So that’s the practice.

Beverley
I love that. That makes a lot of sense to me. Because there are many voices. And I’ve always sort of seen myself from back here. Judging it. And then I’m behind that one judging that one. So there’s many. So I like the term the committee, my committee. And I can stand up. You know, will the real Beverley, please stand up. You know, I’m saying hey, you guys. I’m speaking now.

Marc David
Exactly. Exactly, exactly!

Beverley
Yeah, I love that.

Marc David
So, I really want to emphasize that I think this piece about your relationship with your mom is so important. Because it’s you joining her.

Beverley
Absolutely.

Marc David
As equals. She’s still your mother. But you’re a woman and she’s a woman. And we can have all of that at the same time. The reality is when when you’re with your child, when you’re with your children, you’re going to kind of act like a mother sometimes, but you could also be their friend.

Beverley
Absolutely!

Marc David
When you’re with your best friends, sometimes your best friend is not doing well you’re being a mother for them. So we go into different roles or different archetypes in different instances with different people. And it’s you learning that you can be an equal to your mother. You can both be women. You can both be queens who love you.

Beverley
Yeah, we had a very interesting relationship where she would protect me with her life and I would protect her with my life. No question asked if the situation ever came up. We were extremely close.

Marc David
Good for you. What a lucky thing to have had such a great relationship!

Beverley
Oh, yeah. And like I say, it still continues even though she’s wherever she is now.

Marc David
So how’s all this landing for you? How does it feel for you?

Beverley
This feels like you’ve touched two or three little things that have always been a puzzle that were sort of dead ends for me. And so I’m sort of like, okay, well bring it on. I’m waiting for the next time now. So I can put this all to test and try it out.

Marc David
Well, that’s great. You know, I want to mention one other thing that you talked about, which was, you know, how sometimes you can turn to food at the end of the day, because you don’t want the day to end? So I think that’s a very helpful awareness. And I think the solution or the practice there is to have an end of the day ritual for yourself. That is more positive.

Because right now you have, sometimes you have an end of the day ritual that pulls you down. That’s not the kind of ritual that elevates you. It’s the kind of ritual that gets you in trouble. The ritual is, I don’t want to end this day, I’m going to turn to food. If I turn to food, it keeps me up more. And, you know, I feel a shame but eventually I fall asleep. So one reason that we don’t want to let go of the day is because I feel incomplete. I’m judging myself. My day should have been this. My day should have been that. And I’m just not ready to end the day. I don’t want the day to be over.

Beverley
Yeah. Feels incomplete.

Marc David
Yes. And that part of us is also once again, it’s the child in us who is trying to change the order of the planets and the stars and the sun and universe. Because the reality is, this happens every day that the day ends. And it’s been happening every day for forever. Yeah, so the day is going to end. So maybe there’s a ritual you could think of for yourself, where you go over what you’re thankful and grateful for about the day. It’s easy for the mind to go into what I’m judging about my day. So a gratitude practice, at the end of the day is a great antidote.

So a gratitude practice at the end of the day is a great antidote for the part of ourselves that doesn’t want the day to end. And you’re stepping into your adulthood, you’re stepping into Queen hood by acknowledging every day ends. And I as an adult, acknowledge that, and I am doing my best to welcome that. How do I transition from the day into the sleep world in a good way, you might turn on good music. But do a little bit of gratitude practice, like all the little things, you’re grateful for little tiny things..

Beverley
Little tiny things. That’s right.

Marc David
What are some of the lessons I learned from this day? So even though there might have been challenges, even though I might have done things I’m not happy about? What can I learn from that in the positive? So instead of saying, oh, I should have done this, I should have done that. No. What can I learn from what happened today? And a lot of times what we’re learning is letting it go and we’re learning forgiveness. And we’re learning that we’re not perfect. Yeah. And we’re learning to do our best to stay more awake and stay more aware and stay more in the light.

What a good conversation, Beverley!

Beverley
Really, really! I’m just feeling very settled. Very settled.

Marc David
Where do you live?

Beverley
I live in BC in the interior. The Okanagan in a little town.

Marc David
Oh! I traveled in the Okanagan Valley when I was a very young man. I was backpacking and hitchhiking through the valley it’s beautiful. I remember all the orchards….

Beverley
Yeah! Well, the thing that I find interesting is that I was drawn here 30 years ago or so, by a theatre company. But what really drew me here was the community. And it reminded me of the area in North London, England, where I grew up, where everybody knew each other, we all knew each other’s dogs, you know, everybody went around free at those times. Even though it was a big city of London, our a little street we all knew each other. And that’s what it feels like here.

Marc David
Oh, good for you…

Beverley
So it’s sort of like I found the same areas of where I was when I was seven. I feel like!

Marc David
That’s so sweet. Well, Beverley I’m very confident that you have everything it takes to get where you want to go and getting where you want to go isn’t isn’t perfection, doesn’t mean I never turn to food again, or I never emotionally eat again. Right? It means you welcome that part of you. If you turn to food, you notice it. And you go, Oh, I’m turning to food because I don’t want to finish my day, or I’m judging myself or I’m feeling bad. Or I should have done this, or I should have done that. And oh, that’s completely human. That’s understandable to do all humans do that. All humans turn to food to regulate their emotions, we turn to food to feel better. So it’s completely forgivable. And you can forgive yourself. You don’t have to punish yourself. No punishment needed because it doesn’t work. It doesn’t get you anywhere.

So we’re breaking the cycle of punishment. There’s no crime that you’ve committed. So there’s no punishment necessary. The only thing you’ve done is be a human being who’s trying to do your best to manage your emotions. But then we go, oh, I shouldn’t have done that. I’m ashamed of myself. Now. I’m going to punish myself even more. And now I’m not going to help myself. And I’m not going to do good things for myself. Because, because, because, because, and that’s the kid in us. That’s a teenager in us just rebelling and being a brat. So you’re learning how to manage that committee and talk to them. Go, okay. Duly noted.

And here’s what the Queen says, here’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to forgive ourselves. And we’re going to return to self nourishment. We’re not going to stay in this place for weeks or even days. You can get to where you only stay there for 20 minutes. And then after 20 minutes, you go okay, that’s enough. Yeah. And now I’m going to return back to just self nourishment and self care as best I can. So you just do the best you can.

Beverley
Absolutely. And now I’m older. I’m totally okay with my age. But I am noticing it takes me longer physically to bounce back. Like I’m quite, you know, everything works and I don’t have any conditions. But it does take me longer to bounce back,

Marc David
Which is a good reason to shorten the time that we stay in that darkness that we stay in that unconsciousness that you stay in that refusal. To shorten that time, because life is shorter. Once you once you hit a certain age, you’re coming down the other side of the mountain, so life is shorter. So you don’t want to waste your time.

Beverley
Yep.

Marc David
You’re going to do this, Beverley. I have every good hope for you!

Beverley
Me too! And I started writing again, so that’s really good. You know, because then I can look back on it. I stopped writing for a long time because all I was doing was complaining. And you know, stretching it out. So now, you know I’ve got a balance and I’m looking for the gift and all that sort of thing. So it’s great. And a bird just flew by my window.

Marc David
Very sweet. Great work. Beverley, thank you so much for taking the time.

Beverley
Thank you.

Marc David
Thanks, everybody for tuning in. Take care of my friends.