Body Image Triggers: Where They Come From & How To Find Healing – In Session with Marc David

Body Image Triggers: Where They Come From & How To Find Healing – In Session with Marc David

Marc David
Hi, everybody. I’m Marc David, founder of the Institute for the Psychology of Eating. We’re in the Psychology of Eating Podcast, and I’m with Jenny today. Welcome, Jenny!

Jenny
Hi, thanks for having me!

Marc David
Glad you’re here, glad we’re doing this. And just for anybody tuning in to the podcast for the first time, Jenny and I are meeting for the first time, and we get to have a client coach session together and see if we can do some good things. So Jenny, if you could wave your magic wand and have whatever you wanted with food and body, what would that be for you?

Jenny
I would love to have a more consistent relationship with my food in the sense that I would not have my stressors control my menu and just be able to not have my stress debug my motivation so that I can keep eating clean, because I really enjoy eating clean, I just realize that my triggers and my stressors, obviously make me choose meals that aren’t as wise. And I think for body wise, I would just want to be not as large so that I can be more comfortable in my clothes and my skin and just feel good, feel good in my clothes and feel good and not feel so heavy.

Marc David
Okay, so I think I got that. So you want to be able to make food choices that work for you, that help take you where you want to go and not let things like stress, or emotions just get in the way of making good choices for yourself.

Jenny
Yeah.

Marc David
And you want to live in the kind of body where you feel lighter and you feel better?

Jenny
Yeah.

Marc David
Okay, that’s fair! So roughly, how much weight would you like to lose?

Jenny
I think that, I haven’t been on a scale in a while so I’m thinking if it was to be where I think it might be at, I think I would like to lose about 40 pounds.

Marc David
You’d like to lose 40 pounds. When was the last time you weighed 40 pounds less than you do now?

Jenny
Probably a decade ago when I got married on the beaches of Mexico.

Marc David
Okay, how old are you?

Jenny
I’m 41.

Marc David
Do you have kids?

Jenny
I have two daughters, young daughters, six and eight.

Marc David
So in your opinion, why do you think the weight came on?

Jenny
I think it was an accumulation of different events. So I quit smoking after I got married, which was a huge goal of mine, and I was successful. So 17 pounds came on very easily from that. And I think the shocker on how fast that happened probably, like, really ignited my lack of trust with myself and my body. So I think it was kind of like, it was almost comical in the sense when it like happened. So it was like, Okay, wow, you know. But I was still at a weight where obviously bothered me a little bit, but it wasn’t horrific, it didn’t feel horrific, you know. But still, I was pushing 170 pounds, probably at that point. And then I got pregnant and I gained – I was probably 24 pounds and my pregnancy and I remember my midwives just being very skeptical of my weight. So it was again, like a wow, this is a really large amount. I dropped some after that pregnancy, I got pregnant again, went back up, dropped some again.

And then I think life got really stressful. And it started to kind of crawl back in again. And I also had a near death experience. I had a falopian tube that burst from an ectopic pregnancy so I almost died. And it kind of sparked a new path for awareness and enlightenment which was really great. But at the same time, I realized that I had a lot of challenges and a lot of inner child work and a lot of things to process. I think the processing of emotions and wounds that I’d had deep down and was not dealing with also added to the bad food choices and everything while trying to deal with those emotions. and it probably kept me grounded in feeling safe. I think on some levels that excess weight, was like a protection sort of thing.

Actually I just have to say, you are so amazing, because I think it was a random night that was a sleepless night and I had found you on the internet and was listening to one of your things and it really made me dive into some of those questions about what my experience was. I never really knew what my food story was, I don’t think I had really dove into that I had done a lot of work with my healing, and, you know, every other aspect of my life, and I don’t think I really realized a lot of my triggers from my childhood. So I think I was a chubby kid. And just naturally wise, I was told I was just naturally chubby. But I think some of the nicknames my family had given me was jumbo Jenny, and they thought it was funny, you know, but that stuff really sits with you. And my parents got divorced. I think I probably put on more weight after that. And I’m not sure if it was necessarily because maybe I was eating to feel better. Or if that was just like our diet at the time with busy parents and busy lives.

Marc David
Wow. So, I’m gonna circle back to some of the things you just shared, but I want to ask a question. So the last time you weighed 40 pounds less was, you know, right around the time you got married. Before that, what was your experience with your weight and with food?

Jenny
You know, our parents were hustling. And so I’m not really sure why weight had started to come on in elementary. And I remember seeing people’s faces and how they looked at me then differently from getting chubbier. And I remember, you know, my dad making pancakes and being like, you don’t need to eat the butter. Why are you eating the butter? Let’s do a taste test to see if you really need the butter. And I remember feeling like I didn’t put the food on the table. And am I really making these bad choices myself did I get here because of myself and my food choices at probably only around like eight years old. So he was just trying to do the best he could at the time, probably because he could see that I was getting, you know, a little bit chubbier, but it really probably ignited a whole lack of mistrust within myself that’s lasted a lifetime.

And I remember doing the cabbage soup diet with my stepmom, I was probably 11 or 12 and I think that stuff, I didn’t realize how much it had affected me later on. So I fluctuated in weight and probably in high school, I was really determined to lose a lot of my weight. And I did. And I stayed at a decent weight for my teens and my 20s. But I was never the skinniest. I felt comfortable and I felt good. But I think I didn’t realize how much others perspective of my weight affected me. I had a girlfriend who set me up on a blind date one time, and she told me “Yeah, I told him, you know, you’re a really great girl, but you’re not supermodel thin or anything.” And I remember feeling why is that significant? And I at the time, I felt really good about myself.

So I feel like there was like a repeating pattern of me feeling okay, but then others telling me my weight was not okay. So I think that when I would hear that from others, it would trigger a lot of lack of trust within myself, and a lack of trust with my food. So I don’t I didn’t even realize how much I didn’t trust myself and how much for years, I had so much guilt associated with all of my food and my eating, I just didn’t recognize it.

Marc David
Thanks for sharing so honestly about that. And as difficult as it feels right now. You’re in a good place. Yeah. And when I say that, what I mean is that you can see yourself like never before and see your journey like never before. And what I’m hearing from your journey is that from a young age, you got the message that Jenny, you’re not okay. And that not okayness has to do with your weight but what we hear at that age is I’m not lovable. I’m not acceptable. I’m not good enough. There’s something wrong with me. And oh, it’s my weight. If my weight was different than I’d be lovable. Because you’re a mom and you know, this, your your kids want to be loved. They want to know, when we’re young, we want to know I am loved. I’m accepted. I am safe. Because guess what, if I don’t feel loved, then I don’t feel safe.

Jenny
Absolutely!

Marc David
So part of it is that we’re then driven to believe in part that well, if I can lose weight, then I’m safe. Because losing weight means I’m lovable. And losing weight means I’m marriageable. Yeah. And that somebody is going to care about me. Because yeah, I know my parents kind of love me. But on some level, they kind of didn’t exactly. It was conditional.

Jenny
Yeah. It felt that way, even though I know it wasn’t their intention.

Marc David
Yes, So, like you say, big people, parents, we all do the best that we can find out later on as a parent. I could have done this better. I know that happened to me. And, you know, here’s what’s so fascinating about life is that we’re given a message at a young age, you’re not lovable because of your weight. And it’s easy for us to take that message and internalize it. So technically, I’m gonna guess nobody in your life is telling you, Jenny, we’re not gonna love you until you lose weight.

Jenny
Technically, no.

Marc David
Your daughters are not saying that.

Jenny
No

Marc David
Does your husband say that?

Jenny
Nope.

Marc David
Nope. So nobody’s telling you that you’re unlovable because of your weight. Except for maybe one person?

Jenny
Myself?

Marc David
Bingo. So in so many ways that’s where the action is. Here’s the paradox. You wish to lose weight? I’m going to call that wish in its purest form. It’s a preference. It’s a preference. I prefer a lot of black clothes these days. prefer soft cotton shirts, because they make me feel good. I prefer a certain kind of food. I prefer a certain kind of climate. I prefer to be by the ocean, even though I’m not. So we have our preferences. And our preferences are completely fine and completely legitimate.

However, you don’t say to yourself, well, you know, I prefer to wear a certain kind of clothes, you know, a certain color. But if I don’t have that color, therefore, I’m not lovable. So I think what’s happening right now, is that there’s a part of you that wishes to have a different weight and shape. And there’s a part of you that’s driving that desire for weight loss – that’s Little Jenny. That’s 6/7/8/9 10 year old Jenny. I’m not gonna be lovable. And if I can do this, okay, yeah, I’ll feel lighter, for sure, but the reality is, there are people that weigh plenty more than you do and they’re light. Meaning I don’t feel heavy. There’s people who are far thinner than you and me. They’re heavy. So there’s a piece a piece of lightness that’s a feeling. Yeah. Because if I’m not liking who I am, or where I’m at, for any reason, I’m going to feel heavy. I’m going to feel more down or more depressed. And yes, there’s a certain truth that if you weigh less, you can, not guaranteed, but you can literally feel lighter. So I just I mentioned that because I want you to be clearer and clearer about what losing weight really means for you. And I think there’s a part of you that is still getting current with “I’m lovable as I am”. Yes, you don’t fully believe that?

Jenny
No I’m working on it.

Marc David
Yes. So that, I think, is where the real action is!

Here’s the challenge, if you make your lovability your Jenny’s lovability to Jenny. I will love myself when I lose weight. If you make your lovability of yourself conditional on that. Wowzer that’s a lot of pressure. That’s the same pressure you had when you were a kid. Well, now how do I do this? Okay, cabagge soup diet. Okay. We’re gonna do this. I’m gonna do it. Because our core value is to be loved…So here we are.

Jenny
Yeah. And I find even when I get to a place where I think that I feel good And I am good. You know, we recently went to Mexico in the fall, and I had to buy a larger bathing suit, it was a whole thing. And you know, I had stopped yo yo dieting, because I was doing that after my second pregnancy, which got me probably even worse than where I was. And I realized that was a horrible decision. So I wasn’t going to make the decision that we are going to Mexico and I must lose, you know, 15 or 20 pounds before we go as I said m goal before I go to Mexico is just to fully accept my body before I get there, so that I can feel good regardless of the weight that I’m at. And I did great. I remember being in a bathing suit and walking around with confidence and feeling really awesome. And I, you know, I felt “good for you” you know, like, you will shed the weight when you feel the love for yourself. And I ultimately know that and I would feel great.

But often what derails me is seeing a picture of myself. And then all of a sudden, I see basically like fat Jenny. It’s not what I see in the mirror. So what I see in the mirror on a daily basis is decent. It’s like acceptable, and I can love that. And then I feel like when I get like a third party’s perspective, in like a photo or something, I’m shocked at what I look like it has no resemblance to what I see in the mirror. And so when I see that, I feel that it derails my journey. And probably like my false sense of self love deteriorates a little bit at that time. And then I repeat this pattern of probably then making bad choices, and you know, not doing so well. So my motivation and any success that I probably would have had at that time, then I kind of go backwards. And I’ve seen that happen repeatedly. So it is a pattern that I have there.

Marc David
I’m so glad that you notice that pattern. So something triggers you to not feel good about yourself. And everybody has different triggers for that. Particularly when it comes to weight, it could be looking at some other picture of another person on social media that we think is hotter than us. Whatever the trigger is, so your trigger is I see a photo of me and that takes me to the Bad Place that takes me to the place called “oh my god, this is terrible.”. And in that moment, when we feel terrible about ourselves, believe it or not, the best place we know how to go to, to soothe the feelings called I don’t love myself, weirdly enough is with food.

So what happens when we’re young is that we get a major mixed message. You got a major mixed message. On the one hand, you get the message from the time you arrive on planet earth that food is good. Because it is.

There was a point in your life where food was good. There was a point in your life when you were getting the bottle or the breast and this is good. And there was a point in your life. It was all good. Because it tastes good. And when it tastes good, it feels good. And you feel great. So food is good. Yeah. But then we start to get the message. Oh, no, wait a second, food is not good. Because food is the stuff that makes you fat. And fat is the stuff that makes you unlovable, and unacceptable to everybody. So, but food is the thing that makes me feel good that I turn to when my emotions are down. So it’s an interesting conundrum.

And I think on a very practical level, you know what triggers you. And here’s what I would consider practicing. I’m going to make some suggestions and you see what sounds interesting to you. One suggestion is to create an experience where you’re going to look at pictures of yourself. Like, you know, you’re going to do this and you just put on some nice music in the background, light a candle. And if you have a good friend who can be there with you, or if your husband is the kind of person who can be supportive of that, or if you just need to do it by yourself, and you’re going to look at pictures of you and notice what comes up.

Jenny
I feel like crying already. But yeah..

Marc David
And see if you can be with that. See if you can be with yourself. And just keep being with yourself because here’s what happen. If one of your little girls is upset, and she’s crying, you’re not going to just throw her into a room and say, Get over it. You’re gonna be with her. You’re gonna be with her and you’re gonna love her through her sadness. You’re gonna love her through her crying. You’re gonna love her till she’s able to calm down and be present with you.

Jenny
Absolutely, yes.

Marc David
So this is you learning how to re-mother yourself, how to reparent yourself. Because the person that’s crying when you see those pictures, I’m going to suggest is Little Jenny.

Jenny
Yeah, totally.

Marc David
She’s crying because this sucks. I’m not lovable because of this, like, wow, that’s terrible. That’s terrible for a child. So there was probably a lot of tears that you couldn’t cry back then that you can cry now. And those tears are appropriate. They’re real. They’re right, because they’re inside you. And they need to express themselves. In those tears, a lot of it is sadness. But there’s something on the other side of that sadness. And part of it is being able to be present and be present and be present through the tears. Like, I’m gonna stand by myself. I’m gonna love myself through this, even though it hurts, even though it’s difficult, even though I’m crying. Because what happens when we get triggered, is we use the triggering event, because it’s so intense. I can’t deal with looking at this picture. So what I’m going to do is I’m going to just go offline and a little unconscious, and eat all the things I know I shouldn’t eat, which is really saying I’m going to escape the uncomfortable feelings.

So I think you can do that. And do that until do it a number of times, do it once a week, do it three times a week, until you start to notice what’s on the other side of that sadness. And if you look at it as if I’m mothering myself, what would a good mother say to you? Like, it’s okay. I love you. Yeah. Like, I love you. I’m standing by you. I’m here for you. Yeah. Because there’s a part of you that never got held in this whole craziness. Yeah. And the belief is, well, if I lose the weight, then that doesn’t matter when I look at that picture, I’m gonna be fine. Because I already lost the weight. I win. But there’s no guarantee of that. Yes. So oddly enough, I think your path to ultimately getting where you want to go is letting go for now of the need to lose weight. You know you want to lose it. That’s your birthday wish, you make a wish. Blow out the candles. The good lord knows that you want to lose a bunch of weight. And you know it.

Jenny
And I feel like since reading, like both of your books, or listening to one and reading the other, that was like a big aha moment for me like that, releasing the guilt while eating. Like, I had no idea that even while eating healthy meals and all the choices, I was flooded with guilt, because it was, okay, well, you were doing this, but it’s because it’s healthy.

And it’s because there were these messages that I didn’t even know I was telling myself for 40 years of my life. I had no idea that I was doing that. And I could have sworn to anybody that I wasn’t until I had read and listened to you. And I said, wow, like I had noticed that I was doing that to myself. So I have been successful in releasing the guilt while eating, which is great. Not entirely, obviously, I’m sure there’s still a lot of work there to do. And I’ve also been on the journey of trying to, you know, not put the pressure of having to lose weight. And it’s within that too, though, that I see then my patterns circle around, it’s like, okay, great, I’m doing good, and I’m feeling good. And, you know, I can see that I look better and then, you know, then something derails me. So, I get it consciously but subconsciously, there’s still work to do there. Obviously…

Marc David
Yes, it is work and it’s a practice. And the practice is really all about staying with myself. So when the trigger happens, whatever triggers you to go into, “Oh, this is terrible. This sucks. I can’t deal with this. I can’t look at me like that. ” That’s where you need to stay with yourself. Yeah, that’s where you need to stay in the light where you need to stay in consciousness, where to stay in awareness, because that’s the place where we will normally want to go into darkness, go into old habits, go into self punishment. And the way to not go down that road is to do our best in the moment, to breathe and to be with ourselves and to stand by ourselves. So that’s why I suggested deliberately and as a ritual, yeah, sit down with these pictures. And yeah, it will likely be an emotional experience for you. And what a beautiful thing. Yeah. Because you’re, you’re learning how to embrace you.

And, again, there’s nobody in this world who is telling you, Jenny, you are not acceptable because of his body? No, it would be the furthest thought from the mind of your girls, they wouldn’t even dream that. So I just say that, because it’s good to notice like, Oh, I’ve taken on that voice. Because kids are susceptible, and kids are vulnerable, and we do take those things on. And as we become adults, we have the capability to begin to let those go. Yeah.

So the challenge is, we think losing weight is going to solve it. But it hasn’t solved it for you know, repeatedly. So that’s why we weight loss on the back burner for now. And focus on getting to the root of what’s going on, which is you learning to stand by yourself. And you learning to love yourself, even though I’m not approving of my picture right now, even though this is not my preference. Yeah, this is not your preference. That’s fine. Yeah, but it’s not a crime. And it doesn’t mean you’re unlovable.

Jenny
And that feels so light, just you saying that, like, it’s, you know, what a thought and what a belief to hold. You know, like, that just sounds so light and amazing, you know?

Marc David
Yes. And it’s claiming your freedom. That’s what’s going to help you feel lighter. That’s what’s going to help you do good things for yourself when it comes to food because you don’t have to react to your own self attack and self negative talk, oh, I don’t love that. I don’t like that. I don’t approve of that. I don’t accept that.

Jenny
And then be afraid of the repercussions that follow. Because knowing they always do so there’s a lot of fear that happens when the triggers in the pattern set in so I feel like with a little bit of love dissolves a little bit of the fear, you know?

Marc David
Yes, exactly.

Jenny
Yeah, it feels so simple, you know, like I can see it and hear you and I hope that I can work at that but I do feel like the exercise of sitting with the pictures is something that definitely will trigger me to the Nth degree and I think I probably really need that you know. Because my daughter’s are six and eight and I avoid taking family pictures at all cost. And so it would be really nice to look at a photo of myself and not feel horrified or you know, unlovable so…

Marc David
You might even try one time to look at pictures of yourself and have your two girls their pictures. Look at mommy in this picture. Doesn’t Mommy look pretty? And see if you can see yourself through their eyes.

Jenny
My daughter loves my squishy tummy. And I’m like, Oh Christ, they’re so cute, you know, at that age, and it’s just really innocent and amazing. And I just wish that I could do that for myself too. You know?

Marc David
Well, you got help. You can learn from them, you can just watch their innocence because that was you at a certain age, there was a certain age where you had not been taught by the world yet. That fat equals bad. Fat equals unlovability. I tell you, when I got into this work, at some point, I realized I heard somebody call my grandmother fat. And I was shocked. And I just like, thought, what a terrible insult to say that. And I looked at my grandmother and thought Oh, my God, technically, she’s a big woman. But I never saw her as fat….

Jenny
There was so much love there.

Marc David
There was so much love. Never saw her that way! And when we use the F word, like, oh, fat, she’s fat. He’s fat. There’s a barb in there. There’s a judgment in there. There’s a shame in there, there’s an attack in there. And it’s hard to even say the word to ourself without hearing all of that.

I also think, one of the greatest things, if not the greatest things you can do to help your girls have a healthy relationship with food and body is to model it for them.

Jenny
Yes, and I think that that is one of my ultimate goals. And perhaps that’s where some of the pressure comes, as well. I mean, I’ve had my older daughter, throughout her years, you know, notice that my body is different than other moms, you know, and tried to explain we’re all different shapes and sizes. We don’t use the F word in our house, or the S word. So nobody’s fat or skinny, we don’t talk about, you know, body shapes and sizes. We don’t describe people that way, you know, but she has noticed. You know how come at a very young age, how come? How come other moms are, I’m not sure which huge word you want to use at the time, but you know, that aren’t the same size as you mom, like, how come you’re bigger? And I remember feeling really deflated going, shoot, I really want them to have a healthy relationship with health and their body and food and life. And I really want to be that example for them. And so I think that as I’ve tried and failed throughout the years, it’s probably also added the pressure of going, oh, gosh, you know, please succeed, like, please don’t fail. Make sure that you’re able to show them what health looks like. And I guess that starts with loving myself first so..

Marc David
Yeah, here’s the thing I want to say about that. You’re already being successful, you’re not unsuccessful. You’re being successful, because you’re working on yourself, because you were because you’re doing your best to elevate and evolve your relationship with your body. So you don’t have to be perfect. You just need to be moving towards the light, you just need to be moving into more awareness and more consciousness. And that’s what you’re doing. And that’s where the gift is. And they’re not going to necessarily see that they can’t make that distinction. But they will feel it. And that’s what’s important because at the end of the day, no matter what all the good things you do at home, they’re gonna go to school, they’re gonna get on social media, they’re gonna hear all the nonsense of the world. And it’s the world that is teaching us to demean our own bodies.

And so they’re going to need the tools to deal with that if they do need the tools to deal with that. And it’s hard to escape that. So here’s mom and she works on herself and she’s an aware woman and she’s conscious, doing her best. And that’s what’s going to help them because they’re going to need tools on their journeys, because there’s always going to be something that’s making us not feel good about ourselves? They can grow up with the perfect weight in the perfect shape. And there’ll be something else. That’s the challenge. And the tool is always using my challenge as an opportunity to grow. So all that to say is, you haven’t failed, you’re not doing anything wrong. And you can take the pressure off, because you’re a work in progress, just like everybody else.

Jenny
Which is what they need to learn about themselves in life, too. So a lot of pressure on myself, I guess.

Marc David
So we’re taking the pressure off you to be the perfect example to your daughters. We’re taking the pressure off to lose weight, so you can feel better about yourself. So some invisible committee in your head can feel better. So that’s what we want to remove. That’s the real thing you want to lose? Yeah you want to lose weight but..

Jenny
I need to lose the committee. I love that!

Marc David
Yes, at the very least, we want to decommission the committee, we want to want to take away their airtime. We want to take away their power. And if they want to babble every once in a while you notice the voice? Because those voices, I don’t think they ever go away. I think what happens is we just downsize those voices. So instead of letting it run the show you’re just like “Oh, there they are.”

Jenny
Yeah, kind of like meditation. I’m a really big meditator. So like, the flip side of my other half is, meditating healed a lot of my anxiety that I had in life, I really love that. And it’s just now I’m just realizing I can actually just take that and apply it to the other side of me with weight and everything too, because meditating isn’t about not thinking, you know, it’s just about, you know, releasing your thoughts and not holding on to them. And it’s kind of like a really aha moment right now that I can do that with myself, consciously in my everyday life, just with like food and the messages that I’m telling myself.

Marc David
That’s the best benefit. I think of meditation. Because it’s a form of training your mind. Yeah. And what happens is the mind has habitual thoughts. It has habitual beliefs, meaning you wake up in the morning, and your mind thinks the same thoughts. It’s been thinking since you were a kid. Yeah, I’m too fat. I’m not, Oh, I gotta lose this weight, whatever else.

Jenny
It’s repetitive and it’s 85% negative. It’s just natural for everyone’s brains to be like that, you know?

Marc David
Yes, the brain does that. And it’s our mind. And the mind is like a tool, and you can learn how to use the tool better. So oh, those thoughts can come up. And I could notice them. And I can let them go. And it’s a practice, like anything else, you the more you play at it, the more you practice, the better you get. You’re not gonna be perfect at it.

Jenny
And that’s okay. I’ve realized that significant changes that meditation has made in my life, which is like, huge, you know, it’s just amazing that I never thought of applying that mindset to food and body.

Marc David
So, I want to ask you a question. And this is more personal and feel free to not answer it. I am super intrigued by near death experiences. I’ve had my own which are, like different from others that I’ve heard described. But I’m wondering if you can say what was the most poignant thing or the most powerful thing about it, that you learned from that near death experience, like coming back into life, like what shifted for you?

Jenny
I think the crazy thing about the actual day itself too, was the realization of… you know, I was told that my eyes were rolled in the back of my head and because I was bleeding from the inside out, so I was basically losing all of my blood on the inside of my body. And I was so conscious, I was so aware, like, everything was so clear and I couldn’t communicate to anybody around me or the paramedics you know, and or anybody in the hospital but it was like I had this connection with everyone’s brain. Everything was so clear. It was so aware. It was just this amazing. consciousness is the only thing I could really describe it. And so I think after that I felt so blessed to have a second lease on life. And it was like amazing.

And I think that some people take that feeling and they run with it. And it can immediately spark them to do great things and have courage and bravery in areas that they never had before. For me, it was, there was also like a huge sense of guilt and shame that I followed it because I felt like, why am I not feeling that way? Why am I not being hugely successful? Now I have this amazing second lease on life, and why am I not feeling that way. But it was, again, now hindsight, realizing that that sparked a journey to go more inwards. So all of that consciousness and awareness, I saw the world differently, like the trees, everything just was differently. It was like, you know, like, being hit with an enlightenment stick. But then I realized that I’m not really enlightened right now. But through work, and through my amazing counselor, she said, enlightenment isn’t a single event, it is a journey. And so there’s like, the eunomia symbol, which signifies enlightenment at the top of it. And the symbol itself kind of goes back and forth like this. And it’s kind of about like, the chaos of life, the chaos and then bliss and chaos and bliss. And then ultimately, maybe you get to enlightenment and bliss up here. But I had to really kind of come to terms with the fact that life is messy, and that’s okay. And you can still be amazing, conscious and aware. And then it may really get messy. So like that back and forth of imperfection. And I think from having that experience it really allowed me to see that all much clearer.

Marc David
What a beautiful thing. That’s your unique journey. And it sounds like you’re learning how to let go of some of your perfectionism. And some of your beliefs that it has to look like this. So come out of this experience and be this supercharged, powerful person who has no problems and no issues. And yeah, that’s all extra weight that we don’t need to carry. When we let go of those kind of optional burdens. You get lighter.

Jenny
It’s funny you say that, because it just makes me think that, I really think that I didn’t even almost die properly. You know, I just didn’t even do that well! Kind of entertaining that way, you know? Haha.

Marc David
That’s so funny. Well, Jenny, I think this has been a great conversation. I hope it was good for you and useful.

Jenny
It was amazing. I’m really appreciative of you and your wisdom. I just wanted to say too that, I wish the whole world could hear your voice. I just I really do because I feel like you have such a wisdom and such a way of connecting with people in order to be able to see them. Your wisdom and your knowledge that you have is one part of it but the other part is you’re kind of an intuitive Empath to people like you can see right into their souls. And it’s a really unique gift that you have matching your knowledge and your wisdom. So any chance I get I’m always, you know, Marc David, because I just feel like the whole world needs to hear your voice. And I’m really grateful that I’ve heard it and I’m so appreciative that you have me on today, too.

Marc David
Thank you so much, Jenny! I really appreciate the compliment. And I appreciate you spreading the word for sure. Thank you so much. It’s been an honor.

Jenny
Thank you, too. I appreciate it!

Marc David
And take care of everybody!